6 x 2

[JohnEboy]

Just wanted to show the 6 2nd versions I have . It's been a slow process aquiring them but also good fun .

[Ted Lanham]

JohnEboy,
Very nice!! Thanks for sharing.
How many years did it to put the group together?

Regards,
Ted Lanham

[JohnEboy]

JohnEboy,
Very nice!! Thanks for sharing.
How many years did it to put the group together?

Regards,
Ted Lanham

Hi Ted
I think it was a tear before I found the first one , but wasnt really actively looking for these , I was just picking up Mitchells as and when I saw something I liked . I think all 6 came within about 3 years and the last 3 within the last 6 months,
Kind regards
John

[Ted Lanham]

JohnEboy,
You must be doing something right. That wasn't much time to gather them. There aren't that many of them around where I live.

Ted Lanham

[JohnEboy]

JohnEboy,
You must be doing something right. That wasn't much time to gather them. There aren't that many of them around where I live.

Ted Lanham

Thanks Ted , I take it you are in the USA ? I think the last time I posted about 2nd versions someone in the USA posted about the rarity over there . Just how rare and unusual to find are they where you are ?
They dont come up often in the UK but perhaps not such a rarity as Stateside ?

John

[Sandman]

Nice collection John. Note the squared off crank handle counterweight ends being more squared off ends. Those are earlier handles. Are any of the lube port screws chromed? If so, those are earlier too.

Sandman

[JohnEboy]

Nice collection John. Note the squared off crank handle counterweight ends being more squared off ends. Those are earlier handles. Are any of the lube port screws chromed? If so, those are earlier too.

Sandman

Thanks Sandman , I'm sure one has a chromed lube screw , I will give them a proper check later .
John

[piscesman]

Forgive me if I'm wrong. Your reels are great and having just one would make anyone's day over here. I noticed 5 of the 6 reels have the metal knob on the handle. Looking through Dennis's Value Guide 2006, page 20 he has that version as the 3rd. What am I missing here? The reel 2nd from the left on top with the shortened foot doesn't have a knob, just the screw going into the handle. That would mean the wood knob must have split off of it indicating a 2nd version. Thanks for any clarification. Also, any serial numbers??
Kim

[JohnEboy]

Forgive me if I'm wrong. Your reels are great and having just one would make anyone's day over here. I noticed 5 of the 6 reels have the metal knob on the handle. Looking through Dennis's Value Guide 2006, page 20 he has that version as the 3rd. What am I missing here? The reel 2nd from the left on top with the shortened foot doesn't have a knob, just the screw going into the handle. That would mean the wood knob must have split off of it indicating a 2nd version. Thanks for any clarification. Also, any serial numbers??
Kim

Hi Kim
I havent seen any of Dennis's book so cant comment , but clearly people have other ideas about "versions" . My take is that its generally accepted that the round knurled anti reverse on the cover plate is only seen on 1st and 2nd versions and is for many a key indicator .
It may be that I am wrong , but I would expect there to be a metal knob on the handle on 2nd versions .

I wouldnt expect to see any serial numbers on 2nd versions and many 3rds dont have them either .

Kind regards
John

[Ted Lanham]

Mates,
It's my understanding that what JohnEboy stated is correct, and that only the early second versions had the cherrywood handles. The later second versions had the metal knobs. In all the years that I was actively seeking out Mitchells, I was very lucky to acquire only two second versions and they both had metal knobs. Likewise, nether had serial numbers as well as the many third versions I was able to find. Just my own findings.

Regards,
Ted Lanham

[JohnEboy]

Mates,
It's my understanding that what JohnEboy stated is correct, and that only the early second versions had the cherrywood handles. The later second versions had the metal knobs. In all the years that I was actively seeking out Mitchells, I was very lucky to acquire only two second versions and they both had metal knobs. Likewise, nether had serial numbers as well as the many third versions I was able to find. Just my own findings.

Regards,
Ted Lanham

Thanks Ted
I think theres something really special in opening up the early reels to see what they are like inside and maybe hopeful of surprises too .
John

[piscesman]

Thanks for the replys. I'm definitely not an expert and can only go by what is stated and read in books. As the digital age enters and more information is passed on we can narrow down the facts. 1st version no serial numbers. After that the reels came with. If we pool the SN then we could further. Wallace's book now comes into play and I will checking it out. Thanks.
Kim

[GreatLaker]

Kim wrote:

Forgive me if I'm wrong. Your reels are great and having just one would make anyone's day over here. I noticed 5 of the 6 reels have the metal knob on the handle. Looking through Dennis's Value Guide 2006, page 20 he has that version as the 3rd. What am I missing here?

Kim, I don't think you are missing anything. When I first looked at the group photo I imagined that the missing knob was wood and had fallen apart just like you. LOL. For all we know that may even be true, or maybe it's just the collector coming out in us. You have been with the MRM a lot longer than I have and have seen many interesting 2nd versions before. After a while I can't help but look at reels like this without feeling wonder, admiration, mystery, and some times even a little skepticism. After all there have been so many opinions, so many beliefs, and so many legends thrown out about these reels over time, I don't think anyone actually knows all the answers? How do we know what a second version looked like right out of the box? Where is the proof? If there is actual proof somewhere it has not come forward as far as I know....yet.

I personally admire Dennis Robert's works and he certainly was one of the greatest Mitchell reel authorities to come along. The scope and depth of Dennis Roberts knowledge far exceeds mine and as I said before I truly admire him for it. But, I believe that to some extent Dennis's books were a snap shot in time. They document what he and others knew at a moment in time. And as time marches on new things come to light.

My copy of Dennis Robert's book: "Mitchell Collector's Reference Guide", has a copy write date of 2000. In this book Dennis describes the second version as: Year: 1947, Version 2, Black Body & Rotor, Blue Box, Half Bail, Round Anti-Reverse Knob, Knurled Metal Handle. He also goes on the say: "Version 2 represents the first model where the metal knurled handle was used. This replaced the wooden knob that was prone to splits and cracks." Now I do not own Dennis's "Value Guide" copy wright 2006, but did he completely change his mind about second versions? If so, then you may have just opened a whole new Dennis Roberts Mitchell Mystery!!!!

As for me, well, I feel the definition and explanation Wallace Carney gives in his book: "The Mitchell Classic 300 Spinning Reel 1939 to 1989", copy write 2010, regarding the second version reel is the best I have ever seen. Wallace tells us that early second version Mitchell reels had the wooden handle knob at first and then changed to the metal version handle knob. Later, all third version reels have the metal handle knob. Hope this helps.
Kind Regards,
Bill

[piscesman]

Bill, you just summed it up. Probably between Dennis's 1st and 2nd book he gathered more information and realized the 2nd version still has the wooden knob then over to the metal knob. Makes perfect sense. In the 2006 Value Guide 1946/47 he has 2nd version with wooden knob. The 3rd version 1947/48. That would the transitional versions. I always thought the chevron A/R with metal knob was the 3rd version which I have 1 of, which was made in 1948. Thanks for the input and it clears up some things.
Kim

[JohnEboy]

Just my view of course , but I don't see having a wooden or metal knob as a definitive determinant of a 2nd version reel .
John

[GreatLaker]

John,
I would be very much interested in hearing what your "definitive determinant of a 2nd version reel" would be.
Kind Regards,
Bill

[JohnEboy]

John,
I would be very much interested in hearing what your "definitive determinant of a 2nd version reel" would be.
Kind Regards,
Bill

Bill , i think some people have their own definitive determnants of what they consider a 2nd version reel to be , I dont , but if I did a wooden knob wouldnt be one of them .
John

[Sandman]

Since versions are a collector term and not a Mitchell term, it's been up to collectors to define this. Most collectors distinguish the transition from version 1 to version 2 with the addition of Made in France forged on the back side of the main body, and most collectors consider the boomerang style A/R the transition form version 2 to version 3. Of course, there are many characteristic variants along the way that cross over these generally accepted versions. There are studies (including Wallace's and others) that identify chronological attribute changes, that again, span across the versions mentioned above. Some European collectors prefer using a MK nomenclature (Mk1, MK2, etc).

As stated above, the wood (said to be Rosewood) has been found on second version (likely early second versions based on other attributes) and first version reels. I know at least one very reputable collector who actually considers all wooden crank handle grasp reels first versions, even though they have Made in France on the back. Confused yet?

The chromed lube port screw/plug is just one way to easily identify an early second version (generally accepted versions above) and first versions. So, if the reel missing the grasp has such screw/plug it very well may of stated it's life as wood handled reel, for that matter, that applies to any of them.

Sandman

[GreatLaker]

Bill , i think some people have their own definitive determnants of what they consider a 2nd version reel to be , I dont , but if I did a wooden knob wouldnt be one of them .
John

John,
Fair enough, I was not trying to rope you into a discussion on the subject, was only interested in hearing what your opinion was on the matter.
Thanks again for posting the great photograph and I hope you will feel like posting more as I/we love to see photos of these wonderful old reels.

Kind Regards,
Bill

Sandman,
old friend, nice to hear from you and others again and to read your comments. I believe there are many topics mentioned in your post, all of which interest me, but I am concerned further discussion here might stray way off topic. Not wanting to jack Johns post, would you be interested in further discussion as a separate post?

Kind Regards,
Bill

[JohnEboy]

Bill , i think some people have their own definitive determnants of what they consider a 2nd version reel to be , I dont , but if I did a wooden knob wouldnt be one of them .
John

John,
Fair enough, I was not trying to rope you into a discussion on the subject, was only interested in hearing what your opinion was on the matter.
Thanks again for posting the great photograph and I hope you will feel like posting more as I/we love to see photos of these wonderful old reels.

Kind Regards,
Bill

Sandman,
old friend, nice to hear from you and others again and to read your comments. I believe there are many topics mentioned in your post, all of which interest me, but I am concerned further discussion here might stray way off topic. Not wanting to jack Johns post, would you be interested in further discussion as a separate post?

Kind Regards,
Bill

HI Bill
I have no problem with this being dicussed here , I rather enjoy the discussions and sharing of information , yet at the same time I am wary of conflict which I do not enjoy and has the potential to spoil realtionships over seemingly minor issues . Before you mentioned it to Sandman I did think maybe this would have made a good topic in its own right .

I think my view is more of continuous development rather than versions or steps in production , However I think having versions makes things much much easier in many ways , the issue of course is there being no universally accepted criteria for versions . Perhaps what Sandman expressed would cover very well my idea of 2nd versions and indeed versions .
Maybe I seemed overly negative regarding the wooden handles , its just that its possible to see some wooden handles on 2nds but mostly we see metal handles , wheras most people generally accept the knarled round anti reverse as only seen on 1st and 2nds and the made in France distiguishing between those two.
My view is somewhat simplistic , If I see the round anti reverse and made in France and the rest of it is generally correct then I am happy . I am not an avid collector like many on here and I ahd an experience where a collector fell out with me because I disagreed with his rigid viewpoint on certain aspects of 2nd versions . He maintained that the ally gears on the rotating head were only found on 1st and 2nd versions and even showing him a number of 3rd versions with the ally gear as opposed to teh much more common brass looking gears he could not accept it was so.

I wish there were more common ground in understanding the early egg shaped Mitchells , but in contrast I think part of the enjoyment for many lies in documenting and discussing the variations and anomalies .

best wishes
John

[GreatLaker]

John,
No worries.
Let's wait and see if Sandman is interested and if so, then let's start a new thread on a more appropriate board rather than Show And Tell, is my suggestion, what do you think?
Kind Regards,
Bill

[JohnEboy]

John,
No worries.
Let's wait and see if Sandman is interested and if so, then let's start a new thread on a more appropriate board rather than Show And Tell, is my suggestion, what do you think?
Kind Regards,
Bill

Sounds good Bill .
John

[Sandman]

Hey guys, to be clear, I'm not an expert in early Mitchell's. I specialize more in ULs and Salt Water Mitchell's. That said, I'm happy to contribute in any topic where I can and I do have some info on early Mitchell's.

Sandman

[Fishabout]

Where's Wallace on this one?