Transfer Gear Rub

Post by **Baron2** » Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:24 am

I'm working on an older model 300 and it seems that the Transfer Gear is rubbing on the Drive Gear creating a vibration. There are two shims on the main drive gear and I've tried numerous versions of adding and subtracting them...looking for a difference. Nothing...
Would anyone have advice on how to proceed in finding and cure for this?
Thanks,
Baron

Post by **Bonanza** » Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:36 am

Baron,

Check your shims to make sure you have the right spacing.
Might need to add another. Also inspect the gears real well for wear you may have to use a good magnifying loop or glass to find what is not correct. Also check your faceplate to make sure it is set correctly Good luck
Probably something was replaced that was not correct

Post by **Bailarm** » Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:43 am

When you say 'main drive gear' do you mean the gear with the shaft that takes the handle? There were optional shims available to stop the gear teeth of that gear rubbing on the side cover which were available as a spare part but were very rarely fitted by Carpano et Pons themselves.

It would be most unusual to have two fitted.

I'd remove both to see if both are needed or just maybe one...perhaps none.

If that fails the next step would be to see what is happening with the transfer gear. You can assemble the main gear, handle and transfer gear on the side cover and turn it 'gears up' to turn the handle and see what occurs.

I have modified the anti-reverse pawl to keep the gear apart in the past....some would be horrified but it worked:

: Lifted edge( left) of pawl to reduce inter-gear friction.JPG (620.05 KiB) Viewed 32655 times

Post by **Baron2** » Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:58 pm

It is very hard to see this from any angle but from many angles it seems that the rim of the drive gear is rubbing the underside of the transfer gear, causing a rumbling feel or vibration.

At this time I have not been able to see clearly if the pawl is in play with this issue. At this time I'm thinking its not part of the issue. But I remain open minded.

The shims on the main gear seem correct...there are two and they are very thin. If I remove one or both both the main the gear lightly buns the housing.

When you look at the photos it appears that the two gears are not parrallel. When you grab the transfer gear you can wobble it a bit. Mostly it seems to point up so that the drive gear rubs it on the underside.

I'm thinking of adding a tube under the transfer gear axle to shim it up.

It may also be that the Axle (post) of the transfer gear is bent of forced in.

Allot to digest, I know, but this isn't the first time I've felt this on a Mitchell. Just a week ago I turned down a great price on a 440 for this same reason... If I can figure this out I can save a few more of these great reels.

Thoughts?

Post by **GreatLaker** » Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:32 pm

Baron2 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:24 am I'm working on an older model 300 and it seems that the Transfer Gear is rubbing on the Drive Gear creating a vibration. There are two shims on the main drive gear and I've tried numerous versions of adding and subtracting them...looking for a difference. Nothing...
Would anyone have advice on how to proceed in finding and cure for this?
Thanks,
Baron

Baron,
I suggest you begin by answering the following questions for us:

1. Is this reel going to be fished or part of a collection?

2. Did you obtain the reel new or buy it used?

3. Can you elaborate more on what you mean by "vibration" ?

Kind Regards,
Bill

Post by **Baron2** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:50 pm

Hi Bill,
I am brand new to Mitchells although I abused one as a kid (308). I had been looking for an easiIy serviceable classic to befriend and had looked at HI, Penn, DQ and Abu and they all came up short for parts and info.

1)This is the first Mitchell reel of many that I now own and this is not the first I've noticed with this problem. It will be fished. The others are in better shape and I don't want to climb inside them yet as I'm using this reel for a learner.

2)I bought this reel the accidental way. On a rod for $10 at a flea Mkt from someone that isn't a fisherman. It rotates fine, the bail is crisp, the clicker is nice and the drag is perfect......everything works.

3)
-did you ever lower the drawbridge for a castle, the one with the tree trunk axles and cog's? No Neither have I but that is the vibration it would feel like if you did, only more subdued.
-A serrated Seamstress pattern roller is another example ( I used to sew).
-driving or swerving off the road and hitting an ultra fine, low tone rumble strip.
-rubbing your wet socks over the old-fashioned wash board.
-sliding a washer onto a heavily greased rod of all-thread
Something ought to connect here or I'm not very good at describing things.

There is a chance that a beginner would not notice this problem but may pass the reel up for another that is smoother. I hope to solve this issue and rescue other nice Mitchells with the same problem. If I can't pull this off then I still have a useable reel and an excellent parts reel.

I've come for help but I realize that there are some realities here and am not above being told to move on from this reel.

Thanks All,
Thanks Bill!

Post by **GreatLaker** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:53 pm

Baron2 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:50 pm 3)
-did you ever lower the drawbridge for a castle, the one with the tree trunk axles and cog's? No Neither have I but that is the vibration it would feel like if you did, only more subdued.
-A serrated Seamstress pattern roller is another example ( I used to sew).
-driving or swerving off the road and hitting an ultra fine, low tone rumble strip.
-rubbing your wet socks over the old-fashioned wash board.
-sliding a washer onto a heavily greased rod of all-thread
Something ought to connect here or I'm not very good at describing things.

Please post a photo of the fully assembled reel if you have one. Also, is there a serial number on the bottom of the reel foot or on the side opposite the handle? I would like to try and figure out which version of the 300 you have.

If you don' t have a photo of the reel assembled could you please post a photos of the following: the outer face of the cover plate, inner side of the cover minus all gears and anti-reverse dog, the inner housing minus oscillation slide, guide, and pivot gear.

Next I suggest you get rid of all of the old grease. Use a paper towel to wipe off as much as you can from each part. Once you have wiped off as much grease as you can then take and soak each part in something like odor free mineral spirits, or WD40. Let them soak overnight. When you remove each part from soaking, take an old toothbrush and give each part a good scrubbing. Try and get every bit of grease and grime off and especially brush each gear tooth back and forth with the brush. After all the grease is gone wipe each piece down with a paper towel and set aside to dry.

Next, after soaking the stripped cover plate overnight, use a Q-tip to clean out the area where the main gear axle (handle screws into this) runs through the cover plate. Sometimes there is a small space in the middle of this area (tube) that fills up with crud over time. Use the Q-tip to swab out that area so its free of grease and dirt, this may take several Q-tips and a rewash to get it all cleaned out.

Next focus on the reel housing. First wipe everything down with paper towel and then remove all remaining parts from the reel housing. This includes the lubrication port screw, the oscillation guide and it's two screws, the axle, and anything else I forgot to mention. Don't forget to thoroughly clean out the center axle tube from end to end. A Q-tip will help get into this small steel tube. Look at the very end of the axle tube where the rotating head mounts. Between the tube and the flared opening that the rotating head goes into, is also a favorite place for tons of dirt, grease and crud to accumulate. Also, clean the area where the lubrication screw goes and use a Q-tip inside and brush the outer area. Once again, wipe it all out as much as you can and then place the housing into your mineral spirits or WD40 and let it soak overnight. Then after soaking take your tooth brush, Q-tips, and paper towel, and go back over the housing cleaning up any spots you missed. With a little patience you should be able to remove years of accumulated crud.

Now you should have all of gear train and associated parts totally clean and dry except the rotating head.

This is a good time to take more photographs of all the gears, showing both sides, and the rest of the parts you have. We will be able to use this photo to tell if you have the right parts and to figure out if there is anything missing.

Leave the rotating head for now as we are going to concentrate on the noisy gears first.

Kind Regards,
Bill

Post by **Baron2** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:08 pm

This is what it looked like when I opened it up. Then I took lots of photo's and bathed it overbite in mineral spirits and cleaned it up the next day. after that I used a flux brush and applied blue Penn reel grease with a flux brush to all surfaces for future protection. Big Mistake. Its all gone now. Unfortunately I have no "before photos". However the reel was unremarkable and had no serial# on the outside. It was free and all functions worked as they were intended.
Before and after Photos:

Post by **Baron2** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:25 pm

Here are the rest of the photos you suggested:

Post by **Baron2** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:31 pm

And here:

Post by **Baron2** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 10:37 pm

Please forgive me if I've tried everyone patience with all the photos but they did reveal allot. There were three copper shims under the head gear and one under the plate in the head. Lastly there were three very thin shims btwn the housing and the main gear handle stub.
The number 17 and FL are inside the main housing.

Post by **cshannon772** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:40 am

Hello Baron,
Instead of trying the Mitchell Mates patience, I think you have piqued our interest!

. Many of us truly enjoy a Mitchell challenge. It seems to me that the transfer gear is slightly cocked when looking at your re-assembly photos. I would recommend (as has been suggested) cleaning the faceplate and main gear, and installing the main gear in the faceplate without any shims or the a/r dog. Install the handle and see if there is any play in the main gear/handle through the faceplate (especially side to side vice in and out), there should be very little. I have seen the brass bushing in the faceplate (where the shaft on the main gear passes through) wear which induces very sloppy gear interactions and sounds like you're grinding gravel. I think all the added shims were installed previously to correct a bigger problem - The faceplate bushing. Interested in what you find out.

Kind Regards,
Chris

Post by **GreatLaker** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:21 am

Baron,
Good so far

but you forgot the photos of: the outside of the cover plate, both sides of the drive gear, both sides of the transfer gear, and both sides of the oscillation gear. Also, given the condition of the rest of the reel could you get a good close-up photo of the gear on the rotating head as well? Try and get good close up photos of the gears. (the closer the better)

Your reel is pretty bad and I would recommend you go out and buy a couple of small brass brushes. You can get them from Harbor Freight for a buck or so or Wallmart, Hardware stores, etc. This reel is going to need a little elbow grease to get it back into working (fishing) condition.

Go ahead and put all the parts in the mineral spirits and soak them at least overnight. We will be looking forward to seeing the rest of the photos when they are fully cleaned and dry.

By the way, no need to include the spool. Set that aside as it will not be part of this project. Also, will you be fishing in freshwater, saltwater, or both?

Be sure not to put any grease or oil on the parts at this stage. We need them clean and dry.
Kind Regards,
Bill

Post by **Baron2** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:02 am

They’re soaking now.
What type of small brass brushes. brushes? Toothbrush type. Or smaller. Up until now I’d been using a regular toothbrush. I pick them up soon.
Photos soon.

Post by **Baron2** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:03 am

Chris, grinding gravel. That is pretty descriptive.

Post by **Baron2** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:25 am

This type? Brass?

Post by **Bailarm** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:29 am

In the images of the dismantled reel I see no under rotor shims. Part No. 81024.
I think I would next assemble the reel with no rotor, transfer gear or axle and see if the problem is resolved.

I suspect it won't be and the pinion gear/ rotor gear interface is the problem.

Post by **GreatLaker** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 4:36 pm

Baron,
Yes, the brush you show is what I mean. They come with wooden or plastic handles and sometimes different brass bristle configurations. I never have to pay more than a buck or less for them.
Kind Regards,
Bill

Post by **Baron2** » Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:43 am

I put the Drive in without others and without the shims it rubs the housing. It had 3 and I lost one shim. I'm hopeful it will turn up...they usually do. Without this third shim there is a small amount of play in and out on the shaft. With two shims installed it turns smoothly with no rumbly feeling. The sleeve is in good shape and is shiny. The gear shaft is corroded.

Post by **Baron2** » Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:10 am

I want to break down the photos into smaller mailings so I'll start with transfer, oscillation and head gears.

Post by **Baron2** » Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:13 am

Then Next are these.

Post by **Baron2** » Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:19 am

Am I supposed to have the following?

Pinion Gear Adjustment washer
Driving Gear Adjustment washer
Slide guide adjustment washer

here are the rest of the photos...

Post by **Baron2** » Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:21 am

Outside of the cover

Post by **Baron2** » Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:20 pm

Notice the spiral marks on the drive gear. Are they form the transfer gear rubbing? Is this normal?

Post by **Baron2** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:05 pm

Any idea when this was made as I've found no serial numbers on it?

Post by **Ted Lanham** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:41 pm

Baron2,
I've owned several 6th gen 300s with that type of anti-reverse lever that were made around 1962/63. Is it possible that your reel has been submerged in salt water? It shows more corrosion than I usually see around where I live.

Ted Lanham

Post by **Baron2** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:55 pm

Hi Ted, How can you identify it without serial numbers. Just by the A/R lever?
It may have been used in salt but I'm sure it was put away full of some type of water that was emulsified, probably from operating it while full. It was full of brown runny grease when I took it apart.
Are these supposed to have any grease inside them or oil only?
See photos below.

Post by **don309** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:32 pm

I don't know about the saltwater. But I don't think you'll get the to run smooth, till you get everything cleaned up really really good. Just my opinion

Post by **Baron2** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:39 pm

It's clean as a whip. what's next?

Post by **don309** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:12 pm

It's been a very long time since I tore apart a 300! But from the picture of your parts cleaned up. Looks to me your missing at least some small shims.
The picture I'm posting is the one I had apart long ago, now there may be some extra parts shown (like I see two hex nuts). Maybe one of the mates that work on 300's, can take a look at your parts.

Post by **Baron2** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:39 pm

Thanks Don. I agree there are a couple shims missing but everything else is there. was an awful lot of corrosion but its all gone now. Did you continue to sand the inside until all the pitting is gone. I do have access to a bench top glass bead blaster but I'l pretty sure this is a shim or bent spindle issue. We'll se what the rest of you Pro's see and we'll go with it. I want to learn to fix issues before I start on my nicer reels. Into the fire..........
I hope you solve the chrome question.
In your photo you show two head shims and three crankshaft shims. I have, or did have, 3 and 3. Lost one of the small. I'm hoping it will find itself and call me. They are paper thin.

Don

Post by **don309** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:45 pm

Well if you have missing shims, it won't work right!

Post by **Ted Lanham** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:02 pm

Baron2,
I believe that, somewhere in this string, I saw your faceplate with the a/r that had 3 flat edges on the back of the a/r lever. That lever was used from the around 1962 up till 1967. My earlier post was just a guess, but if your a/r lever is made like that it could be up till 1967. A view of the baffle plate might narrow the years down. If this isn't the style of a/r lever that on your faceplate, just ignore what I have said.

Ted Lanham

Post by **Baron2** » Mon Aug 23, 2021 10:19 pm

Hi Ted, thanks. Do you mean the one on the right or left….Inside or outside?

Post by **GreatLaker** » Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:23 am

Baron,
Well, I think this is a good time to stop and assess this project. Now that we have photographs of the parts of the gear train, and the surrounding components, many things have changed in my view of this project.

We started out trying to resolve a "vibration" issue which you later described as a noise like "rubbing your wet socks over the old-fashioned wash board."

We headed off in that direction but as more and more photographs became available things changed. This change occurred, in my mind, when I first looked at the photos of the insides of this reel.

I realized then that this was going to be more of a restoration project.

The approach I would take to resolve a vibration or noise issue is quite different than that I would take to do a restoration.

You may not have realized at first, that you have far greater issues than a noisy reel with this project. Your greatest problem with the gear train is corrosion, and it is no longer a minor problem.

Over the years there have been numerous people who have brought reels to the MRM with issues that were not that easy to correct. Many of them had sentimental attachments to these reels such as a reel that was owned by their late Grandfather or Father that they wanted to keep no matter what the condition. I do not believe your reel falls into this category, does it?

Going by your other comments, and given that you want to fish this reel, I would suggest you find a better Mitchell 300. For $25.00 - $30.00 you could start out with a reel that is in 10 times better condition than the one you have.

Now, I understand you want to use the current reel as a learning reel, but I feel that this reel will require a lot of restoration work in order to bring it back to an every day working reel. I say this and we have not even seen the rotating head. I feel this is not a project for someone just starting out, but that is just my opinion. You would be much better off learning on a reel that is in good condition, IMHO. Perhaps after you have learned your way around Mitchell 300 reels you can go back to this reel.

Moving forward, I would like to say that I believe your current reel would date to circa 1969 or what we call here at the MRM as a sixth version as Ted already pointed out.

I suggest, if you want to preserve this reel, that you do something to stop the corrosion because as they say "Rust never sleeps". You may not know it, but the aluminum alloy parts can also corrode, and at this stage your reel is way past surface corrosion and is now forming deeper pits. Removing the surface corrosion, and then treating with a chemical corrosion inhibitor is the path I would take for the alloy parts. Similarly, there are many rust (steel) treatment products on the market.

My final suggestion, if you think you might enjoy restoring Mitchell 300 reels, is to try and learn more about them and what better place than right here at the MRM!! If you click the link below you can learn the names of the internal parts of a Mitchell 300 and there are other posts for the external parts.

https://mitchellreelmuseum.com/forum/vi ... 065dd73454

Whatever you decide for this reel best of luck.
Kind Regards,
Bill

Post by **Baron2** » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:40 am

In my opinion this is what the learning process looks like...more experienced technicians dragging us new folks up by the ears. I hear you on this and agree.
A little history: For 9 or 10 months I have been cleaning and re-working some of the better spincast reels. Most of them were old Johnsons or Model 33 zebco's. This is my first foray into spinning reels. It is extremely gratifying to re-do a frozen reel and hear it ticking like a clock the next week.
I hear that this reel may not be the correct candidate for a person with my skill level. Just to be sure where is the corrosion. The gears aren't worn and they are clean. Is it by any chance the drive gear shaft and the other studs that are the problem? The rotating head seems smooth and the bail is crisp.
For the meantime I'll put this away into a box of parts to be used as a part reel or for later restoration. I have no love for this exact reel and I have 6 more. Can you recommend a corrosion inhibitor. I would think it should be something that could handle nobility issues. Maybe zinc but I'm not sure and that may be jumping ahead.
I will grab the next reel and clean it down.
Thanks for the time...I'll be back soon.

Post by **Ted Lanham** » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:07 pm

Baron2,
The left. That is the type lever that I was talking about. According to Wallace's book, that anti-reverse was used till it was changed to a straight lever.

Bill, I 100% agree.

Ted Lanham

Post by **Baron2** » Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:55 pm

Ted, Thanks, Hockey stick or gullwing. What part of this in specific terms was the death sentence. to me it is the corrosion on the main shaft but I'm hoping that Mates point out their observations as well.

Post by **Ted Lanham** » Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:19 pm

Baron2,
I bought my first M300 in 1963, so I'm considered a senior citizen of a bygone era. Over the years, since that first purchase, I've gone through several hundred 300's. Some I bought to use, some to collect, and some I picked up to do some service on, sell to either fishermen, or collectors. This provided a little extra money to buy more reels with. I have also given a bunch away.
I always wanted the reels I bought to be in very good, or better aesthetic condition so they would be easier to part with when I tired of them. Many of these reels needed the bail worked on, had internal gear problems, thickened grease, shims, and some just a good cleaning.
So, when I saw the pictures of your corroded and warned gears, parts missing, and all the corrosion both on the inside and outside I knew I would have taken a pass on it.
Like I said I'm a dinosaur for the past, so I like a reel that, even it shows some wear, it can still be pleasant to look at when I'm finished doing my thing on it.
I have to add that I'm aware that there are those that deal in old cars, and they love the rust and beat up look of some vintage cars, trucks to the point that they will have these vehicles clear coated over the rust and damage while spending a fortune on updating the engine and drive train.
I think they call them "Rat Cars".
I could see where if all the tips Bailarm suggests on his link, https://nobbystackle.wordpress.com/2014 ... -300-reel/, that you could have as smooth an operating M300 as could be found, and that the looks of the reel really wouldn't matter.
With that in mind, I could understand why someone might take an old reel that would ordinarily be discarded, and do what was necessary to make this reel work like a new one. If nothing else, its looks might keep someone from stealing it out of the back of your truck.

It would be important to have a good supply of parts to do this.

This might be fun Winter project. I guess this could be a new genre, Rat Reels.

Just My Opinion,
Ted Lanham

Post by **Baron2** » Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:35 pm

So its the gears and not the gear shaft that warned you off. In my opinion I was thinking the gears looked good once I cleaned them. I'm trying to be specific so that I don't fall so hard next time. These were great reels but not If I don't know what to look for. Looks for the sake of looks are not that important to me but I find that looks is often a reflection of how well something was cared for during its service life. This will be a deliberate path for me and I think it will be enjoyable.

I'm cleaning two 304 as we speak.