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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:40 pm • #  
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Does anyone know where I might be able to locate a copy of the original patent translated into English for "The Mitchell"?
I do have the patent in French but wondered if it was ever translated into English. :sCh_fisherman:

Thanks
Kind Regards,
Bill :tup


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:15 am • #  
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Dear Bill,

The original patent is in French and English.

The patent was applied for in France on 28th. July 1948 (no. FR969584) and in the UK on 3rd. August 1948 (no.GB645978).

If you visit the site called Espacenet you will find all you need.

Regards,

JF.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:52 am • #  
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Dear Bill,

When you visit the site, use smart search to find your patent. The title of this one is "An improved reel for fly fishing". Click on this title and then you will be able to call up all of the information you need via the Bibliographic Data box, top left.

JF.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:40 pm • #  
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Hey Mates,

Look, I found MRM Forum has a search function. Did you know (teehee)?

Check out these MRM threads (under the "Michell History Discussions" tab):

Mitchell 300: Great Britain patent 645978A

Mitchell 300: France patent 969584A

Bill,

Technically the English language version is not a translation, but rather a UK patent (as JF has written). Also, technically "300" numbering was not in use at the time, but rather just a shorthand/convenient descriptor in the thread titles.

John


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:27 pm • #  
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Jeremy,
Thank you so much for your help. It put me exactly where I needed to go and was a real time saver for me.
Kind Regards,
Bill :tup


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:57 pm • #  
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John,
Thanks and welcome back. :sHa_biggrin:

By the way, as far as you know, has anyone ever translated the French version of the patent into English? 8o


Kind Regards,
Bill :tup


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 06, 2019 3:16 am • #  
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Dear Bill,

Both patents are the same apart from the language.

As John pointed out, Carpano decided to patent in their own country and the UK.

John and I carried out some joint research on patents some time ago and what Carpano did was fairly normal for that time.

Nowadays the Patent Co-operation Treaty of 1970 makes it easier to obtain patent protection in several countries via WIPO. However in the 1930's and 40's it was not so easy, and it appears that fishing reel manufacturers usually limited themselves to obtaining one or two patents.

Regards,

JF.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:16 am • #  
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The 300 reel as it was later called was also patented in the US and Canada, as well as most of Europe, each country requiring a separate application.... but all patents have one issue:


None of them contain an anti-reverse system.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:45 pm • #  
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Dear Bailarm,

That is very interesting. I have only ever found the French and UK patents for the original reel without anti-reverse.

Could you confirm where the information on the other patents can be found, and reference numbers?

Were these patents applied for in 1948?

In his book "The Mitchell Classic 300 Spinning Reel" Wallace Carney states that the US patent was applied for on August 3 1948, but that is the date of the UK patent and the number shown on the illustration in his book is of the UK patent.

Regards,

JF.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:17 pm • #  
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Hey bailarm,

I have known you to be a knowledgeable collector, contributing much detailed information (far more than I’ve ever known) to the collecting community. I would like nothing more than to be demonstrated wrong about this, but I fear you have somehow gotten a mistaken impression on this topic:

Quote:
The 300 reel as it was later called was also patented in the US and Canada, as well as most of Europe, each country requiring a separate application...

Is there a chance registered trademark may have been confused with patent? Garcia did register Mitchell as a trademark in the US and Canada. If you (or other mates) would like, I can provide links to those documents posted at MRM (by me, as J Fishkat back then).

Or, is there a chance later Carpano & Pons patents for other reels, including in other countries, may have been confused with the original patents for the Mitchell Spinning Reel (aka 300)? I can tell you, I and at least 2 others have scoured USPTO and Espacenet with a variety of search permutations to have not found anything beyond the original France and Great Britain patents for the Mitchell Spinning Reel (300).

Looking forward to your reply,

Warm regards,
John


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:26 am • #  
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Sorry for the slow reply gentlemen.

I am at a loss as to where I saw the applications for other countries. I could have sworn it was on Espacenet but I can't find them now...the site seems to work a little differently these days. I haven't used any other patent search engines for many years so I really do feel it was indeed on Espacenet.

From memory one used to be able to access the original French patent from 1948 and other countries application numbers were near the top of the page and one could clearly see the country abbreviations in front of them.

What I do recall is that the US patent took many years to be approved....some 5 years I think. I seem to further recall other applications in Canada, Spain, Germany and Belgium....and I'm sure these were once accessible through Espacenet, yet a search on 'carpano et pons' now fails to find any of these.

I know that I commented on these findings on other forums and I would normally provide links, so if I can find those old posts I may find links...but will they still work, I wonder?


Be patient with me......:-)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:34 am • #  
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Gentleman, I apologise. I could find nothing on the other forums on which I have posted except a reference to having seen some other patents.

Certainly I found these through the 'abstracts' on Espacenet which used to include links to other, related patents. The other patents lists were not complete, but by opening one after the other one found many other patents applied for in different countries.

A search on 'carpano pons' now finds 50 'hits' ...not one of them the 1948 patent in France! I fear Espacenet is not what it once was but one can find more my opening 'load more results for export' bottom left on the page.


On a good note...I did find the application in 1952 for the 'planamatic gears'...I wonder why they were called 'Gleason gears'?

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publica ... ale=en_EP#


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:15 am • #  
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Hey Bailarm and Mates,

Here is an Espacenet link (click to view and then sort by date ascending). This was by using advanced search with 44 results found in the Worldwide database for: carpano pons as the applicant AND A01K as the Cooperative Patent Classification. The 2 original patents for the Mitchell Spinning Reel are included in those results. The “trick” is to know that A01K is the CPC that includes fishing reels.

Entering carpano pons in a “smart search” provides 662 results with only the first 25 shown (of 500 available to view). As you wrote, one needs to keep clicking “load more for export” to have more patents available to view. The original patents eventually do come up. I gather that once one has more than 500 results, unfortunately the sort function is no longer offered.

So yes, there are aspects of Espacenet that are not user friendly, however, IMHO Espacenet is an absolutely marvelous resource.

Respectfully, I would not limit review to just abstracts, as by definition they are very short. Using patent illustrations may be a quick way to rule out or in patents for more detailed review.

Later, I’ll do a reply about USPTO.

John


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:32 am • #  
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Hey bailarm,

I’ve been thinking some more about what you wrote, specifically about seeing abstracts – if I understand correctly. This makes me wonder whether you might have used Google Patents (an excellent way to start a patent search) that does show text from abstracts.

Here is a Google Patents link with a result of 39 using the search term: (A01K) assignee:(carpano pons).

John


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:24 am • #  
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It would have been quite unnecessary for Carpano to make multiple patent applications.

What they did was sensible : patent in your own country and in one English speaking country.

Although patents were not international in nature at that time, the principle of "State of the Art" meant that it was not possible to patent an invention that had already been granted a patent in another country. So, the course of action Carpano took was sufficient to prevent anyone else from patenting that invention elsewhere. What it did not do was prevent manufacture of that invention in another country. In practice this was not a great problem because if someone else pirated your invention, it was a simple matter to stop this by later applying for a patent in the country where the "theft" was taking place.

In 1946 the House of Lords in the UK stated that the only people that could apply for a patent were the inventor or first importer.

The Patents Act 1977 in the UK defined "State of the Art" as all matter which has been available (in the UK or elsewhere) by written or oral description by use or in other way. The US has a similar definition of "novelty".

We must also remember that the reel manufacturers generally knew and respected one another so that stealing another's idea would have been regarded as bad form.

Carpano used the small line clip in the reel spool under licence, and this was clearly stated in the early owner's leaflets.

JF.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:10 am • #  
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What I recall from Espacenet was active links to other versions of the patent and invariably the patent number was preceded by letters indicative of the country in which the application was filed.

These links were between the heading and the actual image, as highlighted here:

Attachment:
Capture (Small).JPG


Someone at some time must have created all these cross links and it's sad that all that work now seems to have been taken down.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:04 am • #  
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Dear Bailarm,

With all due respect we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

I have carried out considerable work on this and I have no doubt that the original Mitchell reel was only patented in France and the UK. I have used Espacenet regularly over the last 3 years or so, and I am not aware of any changes in content during that period.

I am by no means a computer expert, but individuals much more computer savvy than me have failed to find the patents you think exist. Also, as explained earlier, it would not have been necessary for Carpano to make multiple patent applications.

If you can turn up some hard evidence of the existence of these other patents, I will be very interested.

JF.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 5:07 pm • #  
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Hey bailarm,

I am at a loss for anything that would be helpful for your recollection.

The link I posted above, Espacenet link, does show patent numbers lead by 2 letters for country of origin (e.g., FR969584 and GB645978 – the original Mitchell Spinning Reel patents). It is very difficult to imagine Espacenet would lose any patents (active or expired) – there is simply too much at stake.

The area you show highlighted in your last post corresponds to a scan of a patent document page. One would not expect any links there and I’ve never seen any links in such a location during my occasional search/review of patent documents over the last 5 years.

John


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