Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

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Simone Baschirotto
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Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Simone Baschirotto »

Probably many of you have this version in better condition, I still haven't found a better one at an affordable price. I wonder what year this version was released. I believe the cranks went from wood to aluminum in very similar times for CAP and Mitchell to egg. I know that many do not think like me but I judge by looking at my reels. I have used very complex metal analyzers for the alloys of the various reels, I have noticed similarities between some versions of cap and mitchell pre 300. This can help to date some reels with more precision. I will need more time, I try to exploit my possibilities with new methods combined with studies made by other more experienced people. I collect, read and observe maybe one day I can give a little help to all of you
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cshannon772
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by cshannon772 »

Hello Simone,
A beautiful and very early CAP reel which is in good condition compared to many that I have observed. Keep in mind that Carpano et Pons did not use a primer paint on these early reels and the black paint was not of the quality of follow on reels years later. At the risk of offending every CAP / Mitchell 304 Collector and Enthusiast in the Free World, I will tell you what I know, my observations and my opinions of the very early evolution of the CAP based on my (and several other collectors) 10 years of collecting/researching these reels.

I'll state up front: These are my findings and opinions which I'm happy to discuss with everyone - I'm not going to argue or have to defend them with anyone.

With that stated Simone, I believe your CAP is a 2nd Version Carpano et Pons manufactured reel which was produced during WW II in very limited numbers. In 1936/37 La Canne a' Peche (which is actually where CAP comes from not from Carpano et Pons) was a major fishing tackle (amongst other merchandise) distributor throughout France. They contracted a company called AMR to manufacture a fixed spool fishing reel. It was quite rudimentary and heavy with CAP cast into the back of the body and these reels were made in very limited numbers for a very short period of time. In 1937 La Canne a' Peche approached Carpano et Pons to improve on the design of the CAP reel based on the design of the PECOS fishing reel which was also being manufactured in France at the time. The first reel manufactured by Carpano et Pons for La Canne a' Peche (I call the 1st Version CAP (only because it is the first in a long line of manufacturing for Carpano et Pons)) was in late 1937 /early 1938. While still manufactured in relatively small batches, La canne a' Peche continued their association with Carpano et Pons and would eventually become Mitchell (and the Mitchell reel) in I believe 1939 just prior to the War. The 1st Version CAP had a bakelite handle of the same design and dimensions as the later wood handle and even later aluminum handles. There was no counter weight on (or inside) the rotor cup. It had a six pillar (deep or large) spool in aluminum. The handle shaft screwed to the main gear shaft with a flathead screw. These reels were produced until the War had a dramatic effect on France's economy, probably around late 1940 / early 1941 and the stock for the 1st Version ran out. The 2nd Version likely started production then. The 2nd Version had a wooden handle - bakelite was a plastic and therefore petroleum based which would have been in short supply; hence wood which would have been plentiful in the Arve Vally of France around Cluses. The spool shifted to an 8 pillar, shallow or small spool to preserve fishing line. An improved rotor with an outside counterweight was added. The handle shaft now screwed onto the threaded main gear shaft.

We need to understand that Cluses and the Arve Valley was never occupied during the entirety of the War. While there were certainly hardships and heartbreak for the people and France as a whole, life would have continued as best the people could in Cluses. The German occupation/over-run was far to the North and the Italian occupation (later in the War) was to the East. The argument that aluminum would have been non-existent is absurd as the Country was littered with it from aircraft (Mostly aluminum) falling throughout the countryside. The other argument is when patents were filed (1948). Patents would have been filed in Paris which at the time was being destroyed and overrun by Germans - The Parisians probably had better things to do at the time than file paperwork - another absurd argument.

So Simone, I hope this answers your question - The short answer is your reel a wartime (1941-1945) limited production 2nd Version CAP. I will do a follow up post detailing the early Version CAPs (and their Variations) with photos and rationale for my observations, research and opinions soon.

Kind Regards,
Chris


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don309
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by don309 »

:text-bravo: :text-goodpost: :banana-blonde: That's all I can say!


Not home retired and fishing! Or playing with my Mitchell's!
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Simone Baschirotto
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Simone Baschirotto »

cshannon772 wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 9:47 pm
Thanks Chris for all this information !!! Always the best in this topic! Then we look forward to your full post on these round versions in the future. ;)


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Wallace Carney
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Wallace Carney »

Great job Chris! :text-thankyouyellow:

Best Regards, Wallace


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Bailarm
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Bailarm »

Chris, the Arve valley was occupied during WW2.

First by the Italians in 1940 when the French surrendered, who claimed it was once part of their land, which was untrue. It was once part of the Kingdom of Sardinia as was part of what was now Italy. A tenuous claim.

When the Italians over-threw Mussolini and his fascists and surrendered in September 1943 the Germans took over, running the area from Lyon. Indeed there are photos of the famous clock museum in Cluses flying the swastika flag as that was the German barracks. There are dozens of photographs on line from this time.

Are you suggesting that Carpano et Pons made reels from scrap aluminium gathered from downed war planes? It was an offence to go anywhere near downed warplanes so any aluminium from them would have to have been done with full German approval.

I don't know who cast the reel parts, but Aluvac in Paris kept going, there is a photograph of the staff outside the factory dated 1945.


I don't think it is necessary to use words like 'absurd'. That is bordering on a person attack and I thought better of you.


I found this on-line some years ago:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0Ve ... es&f=false


}<)))'> Bailarm
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cshannon772
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by cshannon772 »

Thank you Mates for the nice comments. I have invested many years in researching the CAP / Mitchell 304 evolution and history.

For Bailarm:
Nobby, I apologize for the "absurd" term. It was not directed at any one person or persons but at the idea in general, which I've heard repeatedly. I meant no offense and I should have used a better word.

I appreciate the reference to the book A Long Way From The Start but if you read in the front matter under the copyright, it states that "This is a work of fiction, names, characters, places and incidents are a product of the authors imagination" so probably not a highly reliable reference to the times.

I'm not suggesting that Carpano et Pons harvested aluminum from downed aircraft but simply it was readily available to the industry whether the Germans approved or not - The Germans didn't approve of the Patriots of the French Resistance either, but they had a significant impact on the War effort.

I have yet to see a map of wartime France which shows German or Italian "Occupation" of the area around or even very close to the Arve Valley and Cluses. Was there a German/Italian presence - absolutely, off and on. But an "Occupation" is the complete takeover of the government at the federal and local level, all industry and commerce - That didn't happen in Cluses as far as I can determine.

The Nazi flag would have been common after France fell to the Germans as the flag of France was outlawed and would have resulted in immediate prosecution or death to anyone displaying it...Essentially (and sadly) the flag with the swastika became the national flag of France and was commonly flown throughout the country - It was better than being shot.

I'm not surprised to see a photo of the ALUVAC Staff gathered and dated 1945 as France was liberated by Allied Forces in August of 1944 - The oppressors had been gone for at least six months.

Nobby, I appreciate the discussion and your well thought out points, but thus far I can't be convinced that the CAP reel did not start production around 1937 (the Mitchell following soon after) and continued throughout WW II.

I think we can all agree on an anchor point of the well known and documented CAP 54 (1954)? If we back-track from there, I have documented nine significant changes/variations in the CAP reel from what I would call the first Version Carpano et Pons Manufactured reel. So if we agree with some peoples thinking that the CAP and Mitchell reel didn't start production until after the war. Let's say 1946 to allow for infrastructure rebuilding etc.. That would require nine changes to the CAP reel in less than eight years, not to mention the design and manufacture of the Mitchell reel at the same time. I'm a professional Systems Engineer with significant experience (15 years currently) in industrial engineering/manufacturing. I can tell you that is not possible. Even with today's "Agile Development, Digital Engineering, CAD and other tools/modeling, the engineering and retooling would not be possible..In 2021 much less 1946 - 1954.

Only my thoughts and opinions Mates but I do appreciate and enjoy the discussion.

Kind Regards,
Chris


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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Bonanza »

Thank you Chris 👍


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Wallace Carney
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Wallace Carney »

:text-goodpost:


Simplex
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Simplex »

Hello,

Herewith some pictures of CAP reels
On the first the different versions of half-PU reels.
On the next two a CAP on the right foot
The last two a reel on deported foot which was produced in very very few copies (according to the book by B Caminade, author of reference for French reels)
I will soon put on this site the photos of the CAP with planamatic mechanics, reel conforming to the patent
Best Regards
CL
CAP 1.jpg
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CAP PIED DROIT 1.jpg
CAP PIED DROIT 1.jpg (404.55 KiB) Viewed 4068 times
CAP PIED DROIT 2.jpg
CAP PIED DROIT 2.jpg (413.27 KiB) Viewed 4068 times


Simplex
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Simplex »

NEXT
CAP PIED DEPORT 1.jpg
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CAP PIED DEPORT 2.jpg
CAP PIED DEPORT 2.jpg (387.76 KiB) Viewed 4068 times


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Bonaventure
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Bonaventure »

Good Day SIMPLEX,

Those are nice photos

The Pied Droit (Straight Foot) has a very robust foot and stem. I have seen this before, but the Pied Deport (Offset Foot) i have not seen. It also has a foot stem more solid than the later foot stem on the 300 model. A couple of my Mitchell 300 reels were given to me because someone trod on the reel and broke it there.

How rare is the Deport? Do you know what year the Reel was produced? It looks to be in pristine condition. Do you have the Box and papers that came with the reel when it was new? It looks like you are very lucky to find this item.

You have a very nice collection of Round Body Mitchells.

Best wishes

G. Glen Simpson
Dartmouth, Nova Scotia


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Ted Lanham
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Ted Lanham »

Greetings Simplex,
I'm in the same boat as Glen. I've never seen a "Pied Deport " before, that I can remember :text-coolphotos:

Regards.
Ted Lanham


Simplex
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Simplex »

Hello
Glen and Ted,
This reel was considered as a prototype by specialists at the beginning, but after a few reels were found and then considered as a reel manufactured in very small series.
I have no documentation and no box. I've had it for a good fifteen years, but I don't know when it was made.
Best regards
CL


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Bonaventure
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Bonaventure »

Allo SIMPLEX,

Except for the Pied Droit, most Mitchell's have an offset bend that places the reel farther back. Well OK, the Pied Droit does as well, just not very much. However, the Pied Deport places the reel in the opposite direction, toward the Rod Tip and quite a bit forward.

Mon Ami, there will be a lot of interest in this reel by collectors on this side of the Atlantic. If you could locate a couple of more you could for sure score some points here :text-lol:

Best wishes, I am interested in where this thread will go.

Bon soiree

Glen en Nouvelle Ecosse


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Simone Baschirotto
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Re: Old cap version e Mitchell spinning analisi fusioni

Post by Simone Baschirotto »

Simplex wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:53 am Hello,

Herewith some pictures of CAP reels
On the first the different versions of half-PU reels.
On the next two a CAP on the right foot
The last two a reel on deported foot which was produced in very very few copies (according to the book by B Caminade, author of reference for French reels)
I will soon put on this site the photos of the CAP with planamatic mechanics, reel conforming to the patent
Best Regards
CLCAP 1.jpg
CAP PIED DROIT 1.jpg
CAP PIED DROIT 2.jpg
wow, thanks for this info and pictures!
Cordiali Saluti
Simone


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