Mitchel Reel Musem - Mitchel Mates Discussion Group

Mitchell Reel Museum Discussion Group

If you are looking to collect, buy, repair, service, learn, ask questions or go fishing with a vintage Mitchell Fishing Reel, you are at the right place! We are just Mitchell Reel collectors and enthusiast who enjoy an open discussion forum on "vintage" Mitchell Fishing Reels. Please Click Here to learn how to make a post and ask about Mitchell reel service or repairs, get advice on buying or collecting, or any other question in this free public forum.

"Click Here to Find Vintage Mitchell Reels For Sale Worldwide"

It is currently Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:55 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Go to page 1, 2  Next   Page 1 of 2   [ 32 posts ]
New Topic Add Reply
Author Message
 Offline
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 4:12 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
As a "300" man, I regard the first Mitchell as the most important reel from the Carpano stable.

I hope members will enjoy seeing an exceptionally nice example which appears to be factory-fresh internally. The photos speak for themselves.

JF.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 4:14 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
And :


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 5:32 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:38 pm
Posts: 79
Location: NOVA SCOTIA
Very nice reel.

G.Glen Simpson

Dartmouth, Nova Scotia.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 7:46 am • #  
User avatar
Global Moderator

Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:00 pm
Posts: 1339
Location: West Virginia, USA
Jeremy,
Now, that's a rare one, and with all its paint. :sBo_bouncing2:

Great reel!!!

Regards,
Ted Lanham


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 3:04 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
Glen and Ted,

I'm glad you like the reel : she is rather special.

JF.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Sun May 12, 2019 6:03 pm • #  
User avatar
Sr. Member

Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:20 pm
Posts: 246
Location: Michigan
Jeremy,
Thank you for posting these beautiful photographs. If you ever decide to disassemble the reel any further, I should love to see those photos as well. :sHa_okay:

Kind Regards,
Bill :tup


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 6:57 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
Dear Bill,

I'm glad you like the reel. I shan't disassemble this one, but I have others here if you have any specific queries. However, the MRM 1st. version study covers the individual parts very well. As one would expect, with no old stock parts to cloud the issue, the first reels are identical in most respects.

I have, however, attached photos of another minty 1st. which highlight 3 subtle differences which can occur. This reel had Mitchell engraved before painting with the result that it is filled with black paint with white over. The other reel had Mitchell engraved through the black paint.

This reel has steel cover plate screws whereas the other has aluminium screws with a not very user-friendly narrow slot. I have seen both types of screw on other early reels.

The slot in the chromed lube port screw of this reel is wider than that in the other reel. I think the MRM study reel has a screw with the wider slot.

You will see that the second reel is also in fine condition, albeit the foot has been lightly filed.

I think the second reel shown is the earlier of the two.

When time permits I will show some other reels that demonstrate how the paint can degrade if the reel is stored in damp conditions or heavily used.

JF.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Last edited by Jeremy Fisher on Mon May 13, 2019 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 7:00 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
Extra photos :


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 11:39 am • #  
User avatar
Sr. Member

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:18 am
Posts: 593
Location: Portland, OR
Thanks for showing Jeremy...very nice 1st version examples...couple attributes I notice indicative of first versions...

1) Fine cut A/R knob knurling
2) Flat milled pivot gear studs
3) Non-chamfered crank handle counterweight
4) Non-chamfered line guide screw head
5) Very bulbous line guide
6) Wood (Rosewood?) crank handle knobs
7) No MIF on back housing
9) Non-beveled main gear raised collar
10) Chromed lube port screw head (you mentioned this)

Sandman


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2019 2:00 pm • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
Dear Sandman,

You have correctly identified the features of a first version Mitchell.

The studs of the pivot gear are slightly rounded (milled) at both ends. In later reels only the end in contact with the slide is rounded.

I'm not sure what wood the knob is; I just call it hardwood. The mahogany colour on the 2 reels shown is the most common, but there is also an attractive lighter knob which looks like maple (I think the MRM study reel is like this) and also a mid to dark brown one. These knobs are actually very robust.

I think it is generally accepted that the defining feature of a 1st. version is the absence of MIF from the housing. It is not possible to fake a housing by filing off MIF because, as the MRM study shows, the axle is installed differently than in later reels.

I use the AR knob as a quick identifying feature for the very first reels.

It should be noted that the very first reels lacked visible paint primer, but there are legitimate first versions (no MIF) with primer to part or all of the body. These can properly be considered as transitional reels from first to second version. These reels might have a different AR knob and transfer gear.

It appears to be a controversial subject, but I am of the school of thought that considers it necessary to distinguish between the different first and second versions by sub-dividing the primary version. After all, as an example, a 2nd. version reel with wooden knob is much rarer and more valuable than the same reel with a metal knob.

Thanks for your input.

JF.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 12:59 am • #  
User avatar
Sr. Member

Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:20 pm
Posts: 246
Location: Michigan
Sandman,
A quick question as I am taking notes and need clarification on one of the attributes above. :sCo_hmmthink:

"9) Non-beveled main gear raised collar."

I can't seem to picture what you mean. Are you referring to the area where the tiny center gear for level wind gearing is located? Where is the bevel?

Jeremy,
I do not understand what you mean that you can't sand off the MIF because of the axle location? Don't worry I would never do such a thing.

Just trying to learn more about 1st version reels. :sHa_okay:

Kind Regards,
Bill :tup


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:52 am • #  
User avatar
Sr. Member

Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:01 pm
Posts: 227
Location: USA
Hi Great Laker, I think what Sandman is referring to is that you could sand the MIF off of a second or third version to fake a first version , but the rear anchor point for the axle can't be changed plus you would have to deal with the A/R knob . The gear he mentions is the main gear and at some point I think the top edge opposite the teeth was given a bevel . You should be able to find pics of the gears somewhere on the site. I hope this helps and if I'm wrong on some of this Sandman I'm sure will clarify it . Regards, John on Pa. :sCh_fisherman:


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:35 pm • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
Dear Bill and John,

I will jump back in although I suspect Sandman will also have something to say. I also notice that Bailarm is posting and he is an expert on mechanical matters and can explain better than me.

The single most important part of a first version is the housing which lacks MIF. However, as Wallace Carney first pointed out, the way the axle is installed is different on a 1st. version to later reels, and this difference would be very difficult to fake. This is why filing off MIF would not be sufficient.

I attach photos of the housings of a first version and a third version.

In the first version the axle is installed after the housing has been made. The axle is welded in place and roughly filed down to the surface of the housing. In practice the axle is often slightly proud of the housing and sometimes washers are placed under the slide guide to compensate.

On later reels the axle was cast into the housing and the axle and a small adjoining part of the housing were then machined down together with a linishing machine. The real giveaway is that the end of the axle where the lube port screw fits looks larger in later reels because it has a covering of aluminium from the casting process.

The photos I hope explain.

JF.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 1:44 pm • #  
User avatar
Sr. Member

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:18 am
Posts: 593
Location: Portland, OR
Jeremy, thanks for the excellent clarifying info on the axle housing differences...feel free to explain and/or show photos of the main gear collar beveling...I won't be able to get to my photos for awhile to do this.

Sandman


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:02 pm • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
Dear Bill,

I will attach photos which show the bevelled edge of the main gear raised collar which Sandman referred to.

As explained earlier, late first versions differ from the early ones in some respects and these are what Sandman highlighted.

These reels are still classed as first versions because they have the all-important housing without MIF. I attach pictures of a particularly fine late first version which some collectors would call a 1.2. This is in fact a transitional reel from first to second version and would be identical to the very early second versions apart from the absence of MIF. I believe that Sandman showed a very early 2nd. here a little while ago and he may wish to show it again for comparism when time permits.

This 1.2 reel differs from the 2 reels I showed at the beginning of this topic in the following ways :

The body is blued and then primed under the black paint.

The anti-reverse knob is still of aluminium, but the knurling is coarser.

It has a different transfer gear. If you have Wallace's book you will see that the gear with the pin-pricked surface is TG2. This gear will be found in late firsts and early seconds.

Now the gear Sandman referred to. On most early reels the raised centre section of the main gear has vertical sides. For some reason, however, on some late firsts and early seconds the sides of the centre section slope or as Sandman describes are bevelled. I think the photos show this well. This is a very useful identification feature.

I hope my explanations are not too muddled, but the photos I think show the differences reasonably well, especially if you compare them with the 2 earlier reels.

JF.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Last edited by Jeremy Fisher on Tue May 14, 2019 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 2:06 pm • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
Including the bevelled edge main gear.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:00 pm • #  
User avatar
Sr. Member

Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:20 pm
Posts: 246
Location: Michigan
Sandman and John,
Thanks for mentioning the beveled edge (Or rather the lack thereof) on the "driving gear" as Mitchell calls it. After looking at the photo Jeremy provided (Thanks Jeremy), I can see exactly what it looks like, so thank you very much. This was the first time I have heard about the first version non-beveled edge drive gear and am curious to know where you learned about it? Do you guys have first version reels or was it something posted here on the MRM?

Kind Regards,
Bill :tup


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 9:11 pm • #  
User avatar
Sr. Member

Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:20 pm
Posts: 246
Location: Michigan
Jeremy,
Thanks for posting more great photos, they really helped me. Sometimes it can be hard to visualize some things without a picture. :sHa_rollingsmilie:
It would be interesting to see the casting process of the first version housings and to watch how the "axle shaft" was installed. 8o
Thanks again for your time, help and explanations, they have been very interesting.
Kind Regards,
Bill :tup


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:23 pm • #  
User avatar
Sr. Member

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:18 am
Posts: 593
Location: Portland, OR
Some shots of the early second version Jeremy eluded to. This one has a main drive gear with beveled collar. Also has the pin-pricked
transfer gear, blued housing and many other features distinguish this from a pure first version...it does have some first version parts/characteristics...all have been noted in previous threads on this site...


Sandman

Image

Image

Image


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2019 11:30 pm • #  
User avatar
Sr. Member

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:18 am
Posts: 593
Location: Portland, OR
More. I have a complete breakdown of each part with version noted...PM me if interested...

Image

Image

Image


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 5:11 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2018 4:38 pm
Posts: 79
Location: NOVA SCOTIA
From my experience with Rosewood during my Mandolin playing days, I can say that Rosewood can vary in colour from the deep red to a Mahogany like shade.

The handle on both the reels could be Rosewood even if it is light.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 11:32 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
Dear Bonaventure,

That's very helpful. I had always thought Rosewood or Mahogany as being possible for the dark knob.

Have you a view on the lighter knob in the attached photo? I have heard Maple suggested.

JF.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 5:10 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
I hope this topic will prove helpful to anyone interested in the first Mitchells. I found the lack of information frustrating when I started. Apart from the excellent MRM study, I could find little to help me.

To conclude I will look at the paintwork on the first reels.

On some reels the paint is very glossy, and the finish quite poor. It is hard to imagine that these reels were intended for sale. The paint looks very delicate and brittle, but appearances are deceptive and the paint is quite hard-wearing. I give my reels a thorough cleaning and have never lost any paint during the process.

The quality of the finish is actually quite inconsistent and some reels, as shown in the earlier photos, are finished nicely. It appears that paintwork was not a priority on the first reels, which is perhaps understandable.

Half of the 1st. version reels I have seen retain good paint coverage : at least 80%. The other half have all worn in a similar way. Typically, most of the paint is missing from the rotor and up to 50% from the housing and cover plate. I attach photos of 2 examples.

On a small number of reels a previous owner has removed the remaining paint. If the aluminium is allowed to dull and darken naturally, the result can be quite pleasing. See attached photos. This reel must have been stored in adverse conditions. In addition to losing all of the paint, the inside is quite tarnished. The top of the axle was so badly rusted that it had locked on to the spool, and they couldn't be separated. Both parts had to be replaced. The reel still runs perfectly.

JF.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 5:12 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
Reel with total paint loss.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 1:40 pm • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
I am pleased to see that there has been some interest in this topic.

Acting on Great Laker's suggestion, I have gingerly disassembled the factory-original reel without disturbing the grease, and made a photographic study. There are too many pictures to show in their entirety, but I have selected a few that might be of interest.

The first shows the completely flat-headed screw which holds the line guide in place, and also the file marks at the end of the bail arm. These marks are found on 1st. and early 2nd. reels.

The second picture shows the indent which marks the slot position for a RHW reel, although no such reels were made at that time.

The third picture shows "Mitchell" cut through the black paint.

JF.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 1:47 pm • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
The next picture shows the baffle plate complete with alignment tit. The latter is missing on about half of the early reels, but I am sure that it was always present when the reel left the factory. I think many sheared off during use due to the strength of the trip spring.

The rotor shims are of steel on the early reels. In this reel there were 2 shims below the rotor and none above.

I attach a picture of the inside of the rotor.

JF.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 1:54 pm • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
The first picture shows the main drive and transfer gears. Note the textured surfaces which are unique to very early reels.

The second photo is of the pivot gear.

The third photo is inside the housing. There were no washers under the slide guide or transfer gear.

I have more photos, but will only post others if there appears to be interest.

JF.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 5:03 pm • #  
User avatar
Sr. Member

Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:20 pm
Posts: 246
Location: Michigan
Jeremy,
Thanks for posting more great shots, love to see them! :sHa_okay:
Great tip regarding the file marks at the end of the bail arm. First time I have heard of that one. 8o

Did any of your first version reels have a transfer gear with a small washer on the back that went between the transfer gear and the drive gear?

Kind Regards,
Bill :sHa_okay:


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 5:29 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
Dear Bill,

Thanks for your continuing interest which has encouraged me to carry on.

I have checked the records I keep, and I have never seen a shim under the transfer gear. I have only seen one 1st. version reel with shims under the slide guide, although I have found them in about 30% of 2nd. and 3rd. version reels. They are shown in an early schematic as part no.55 and described as optional.

I seem to recall a 1st. version reel being sold on Ebay USA about 2 years ago and this reel had shims beneath the slide guide and transfer gear; as does the MRM study reel.

I have a theory on this. On a couple of early 2nd. version reels I have here the transfer gear pushed down on the AR dog and prevented reliable operation. This was after the grease had hardened. If shims were placed under the slide guide it would tighten things up and make it more likely that the transfer gear could foul the AR. Because the brass insert under the first type of transfer gear is not dished out, but completely flat, a shim under the transfer gear might compensate and help avoid the problem. Just a guess.

I attach pictures of the first type of AR knob with fine diamond cut and the chromed lube port screw. The latter will also be found on very early 2nd. versions.

Also a shot of the stepped in axle under the clips. Again only in 1st. and early 2nd. reels. After that it tapers in.

Finally, the underside of the transfer gear without washer.

JF.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
 Offline
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2019 5:33 am • #  
User avatar
Full Member

Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:11 am
Posts: 90
3 pictures of the knob.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Top
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  

Go to page 1, 2  Next   Page 1 of 2   [ 32 posts ]
New Topic Add Reply

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.119s | 13 Queries | GZIP : Off ]