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 Post subject: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:37 am • #  
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I have been puzzled by the fact that the hoop-bail was released in France and the US in 1953, but in the UK only in late 1954 after Hardys' patent expired.
Hardys applied for their patent on 22nd. Sept. 1931 and it was granted on 29th. Sept. 1932. Because of the War it was extended to Sept. 1954. I am wondering if this extension applied only to the UK. This might explain why this bail could be used earlier in other markets.
In their excellent book on French reels the Caminades obviously believe this to be the case. It exclaims "Le brevet Hardy tombe en 1952. Vive l'anse de panier". This can be loosely interpreted (not literally translated) as The Hardy patent is dead : long live the hoop-bail ( the French use the quaint description "basket handle".
As an aside, this superb French book is a "must have" for anyone interested in the history of Mitchell. Although written in French, it is very easy to understand.

Rolands.


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 10:00 pm • #  
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Rolands,
Any suggestions as to where I might be able to locate a copy?
Kind Regards,
Bill


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 1:36 pm • #  
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Hey Bill,

A little bird has told me that Rolands was referring to Le grand livre des moulinets français by Bernard Caminade, Jean-Noël Bohn, Jean-Pierre Mougin, & Michèle Caminade.

You may order it from here:
http://www.lacheminante.fr/produit/largus-de-la-peche/le-grand-livre-des-moulinets-francais/
Click the "Ajouter au panier" button (bottom of page) and, then on the new page, the "commande" button to fill out an order form. I could not determine how much airmail shipping from France might be - possibly expensive.

Other Mates may have more suggestions.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:05 am • #  
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Since there is no such thing as an 'international patent' Hardy would have had to apply for patents in every country in which they wished to market their reels in order to protect designs contained in them.

As far as I can find out, using the Espacenet patent search site, they didn't bother.

Even if they had, ....and as I say, I can find no record of it, .... the patent would have expired long before the British one which was extended by seven years on the orders of the British Government in gratitude for their 'war work' as it was known in those days. Any such decision by the Government here in the UK could hardly have been binding upon other nation's patents even if they had existed.

In truth the seven year extension is probably more to do with the fact that Hardy were mostly 'game' tackle makers then and game-fishing was the pastime of only the rich in the UK then...rich like Lords and Members of Parliament....It was then, as it still is now, acceptable to 'gift' manufactured good to Lords and MPs.....maybe it shouldn't be...?

Another British tackle maker , JW Young, actually made the firing button for the machine guns on the Spitfire aircraft...and nobody extended their patents by seven years.......

In fact Ted Young, partner and designer at Young's, tried to circumvent the full bail patent and Hardy blocked him dead, making him wait until September 1954 to use his 'flexible pick up', .... a two piece full bail arm on Ted's Ambidex reel.

But here in the UK Hardy jealously guarded their patents..that Ambidex reel breached another Hardy patent for a worm drive...another attribute, like the full bail arm, of Hardy's Altex reel. In that incidence Hardy let Youngs continue manufacturing the reel but insisted the Ambidex reel bear the Hardy patent number! They also advertised in the UK angling press to remind everybody just whose patent it was!

Now the Hardy brothers were keen sportsmen and keen travellers and we know they entered some US casting competitions, like those at the Worlds Fair in Chicago..they even won a fair old few..

We know they marketed the Altex reel in North America...but it seems they simply didn't apply for patents there....

Consequently, Mitchell could have introduced a full bail reel everywhere except the UK, as soon as they'd invented one, but it seems they didn't even try until 1953.


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:20 pm • #  
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Hey bailarm,

Although later than the period we're interested in for this topic, there has been something of an international patent since 1978. The Patent Cooperation Treaty entered into force on 24 January 1978, initially with 18 contracting states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_Cooperation_Treaty

I do remember reading that during the late 1940s the US had reciprocity with several European countries on trademarks. Also, that US requirements for trademark renewal were extended for trademarks expiring during the wartime period. Well okay that's trademarks, not patents. Let me see if I can find some documentation about US patents during that period.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 4:37 pm • #  
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That's interesting stuff John, thanks for replying.


Someone has asked me about the Hardy patent and its time period, I don't know why they didn't post here for everyone to read as they are a member here, but here goes:

Jim Hardy told an enquirer once that the full bail patent was extended by 7 years by the Government and we know it was granted in 1932. Patents last 20 years now it seems and this all got a bit confusing until I discovered that pre-War patents only lasted 15 years. 1932 plus 15 years, would have seen the patent originally expire in 1947, but add Jim's 7 years to that ....and you get 1954.

The Espacenet site isn't perfect, but try as I might I can find no Hardy patent applied for in the US....though the site is littered with UK ones.
Mitchell patent applications are there though...US, Canada, France ( of course!) Great Britain, Germany etc etc...so it's pretty good sometimes.....


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 8:32 pm • #  
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bailarm and mates,

Some items to further this discussion.

As background, Espacenet link to and image from the Hardy patent referenced above, GB380939 (applied 22-Sep-1931; awarded 29-Sep-1932). Also, just an interesting image to see, in general.
Attachment:
GB380939 image.jpg

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=GB&NR=380939A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19320929&DB=&locale=en_EP

Next, Espacenet link to and image/text from Hardy's French patent, FR804230 (applied 27-Feb-1936; published 19-Oct-1936). From what I could see, at the time the French patent term was either of 5, 10, or 15 years. If someone knows better please correct me. Perhaps the Caminade's were referring to the expiration of the French patent?
Attachment:
FR804230 text.jpg

Attachment:
FR804230 image.jpg

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=FR&NR=804230A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19361019&DB=&locale=en_EP
John


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 2:40 am • #  
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That last image is a diagram of an actual Altex reel, whereas the previous ones were pre-production idea. The main thing to note in the Altex image is that the bail arm is closed by a set of gears, not springs.

In truth it didn't work perfectly and needed a bit of welly to make it close....but the hand-finished engineering is exquisite!


Mitchell won again really with the 330 Otomatic, the design of which, by Mssr. Bombur still works on thousands of secondhand Match reels today.


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:11 am • #  
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Actually, to try and be 100% accurate, that Altex gear-driven bail closure isn't quite the version that went into production briefly...in 1932 alone, I think. The gears 15a and 15c in Fig.3 are quite different to what was actually made, 15a in particular ended up as a 'star-shaped' gear with an oval outline!!

I think that might be an early patent application as I'm sure I've seen an application drawing for the eventual production version on Espacenet. But it does prove that at one time or another Hardy were interested in international patents after all.........


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:31 am • #  
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bailarm and mates,

In regard to Great Britain patent, I found this from February, 1946:

Quote:
Where does a British patent run, and how long does it last? It runs in the United Kingdom and in the Isle of Man. It lasts for fifteen years... If you can prove that you have been prevented by circumstances from obtaining adequate remuneration for your patent, you can obtain an extension for periods up to ten years.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/lords/1946/feb/05/patents-and-designs-bill-hl

Note, no claim for international protection is made.

This is consistent with my readings on that period; patents only provided protection in the country issued. So bailarm, I agree with you on that point. This leaves me wondering what the Caminade's were talking about.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:12 pm • #  
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Another nice find! :clap

I didn't know you had to pay a yearly fee after the first 4 years in those days. Is there nothing they won't tax?


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:04 am • #  
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John Fishkat and I have carried out some research on the Hardy patents.
We are reliably informed by ipo.gov.uk that after 1919 UK patents ran for 16 years and also that the term started from the date of application. I haven't been able to confirm the length of extension that Hardy obtained ; but if it was for 7 years then the patent would have run in total for 23 years from 22nd. Sept. 1931. This patent would only have applied to the UK and was no. GB380939.
From memory, this patent referred to alternative ways of closing the bail including a spring; but I may be wrong on that.
Strictly speaking the Patent was not granted in gratitude for Hardy's war work, but rather in recognition of the effect of the War. It was possible to obtain extensions to Patents before the War, although post-war legislation made it much easier.
Hardy also obtained a patent in France no. FR804230 which included the hoop-bail. This was applied for on 27th. Feb. 1936. I haven't been able to confirm 100% the length of this patent, but it seems 15 years is likely i.e. until 1951. Again, this patent would only have applied to France.
We can now perhaps see why the hoop-bail was released earlier in France and the US (and elsewhere?) than in the UK. The French patent probably ran until 1951 : the UK one until 1954.
The UK patent was at one time endorsed "Licence of Right". This meant that a third party could obtain a licence to use the design at reasonable cost and that the patent holder benefitted from reduced renewal fees. This endorsement was removed in August 1952 which appears significant to me.
Bernard Caminade suggested that the Hardy patent ran from 1932 to 1952. It is possible that he has confused the 2 patents and assumed that the UK patent ran for 20 years from 1932 and also applied beyond the UK. I am in touch with Bernard on this subject.
It is surprising that Carpano only patented the original Mitchell reel in France and the UK and not the US. However, although a patent only applied to the country in which it was granted, it could prevent the same patent from being obtained elsewhere by a third party under "State of Art" principles. Nowadays obtaining patents in different countries is fairly straightforward, but in the 1930's and 40's it would have been expensive and time consuming.
I must thank John for all of his help with this. I hope some members at least will find it interesting

Rolands.


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:32 pm • #  
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Thought I post photos of the hoop bail Altex reel John provides the diagram and mentions above. As John states, Hardy owned the flip bail patent that did not run up until 1954, or so...Just thought the mates may want to see the reason (reel) there was ever a half-bail Mitchell...It must of looked space age, in it's time...

This is a 1932 Altex...

Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:41 pm • #  
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BTW, Altex photos above are courtesy of Mitchell Mate Bulldog1935.

Sandman


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:26 am • #  
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Dear Sandman,

Fantastic photos. Thanks.

The Luxor and Pecos reels in France began using the hoop around 1948; presumably under licence from Hardys.

It is surprising that Mitchell didn't do the same, but perhaps they didn't see it as that big a deal as nearly all reels had the half-bail or claw at that time. Or perhaps they didn't want to incur the cost of a licence until they were sure that their reel was going to make money.

The simple round-bodied reels were very much in vogue in France just before WW2.

Regards,

Rolands.


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:44 pm • #  
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Rolands, your provocations around why Mitchell didn't move to the hoop bail earlier are good possibilities, or, they just thought they're design was superior...after all, you could grab the line with your index finger, open the bail with your thumb, and cast all with one hand....can't do this with a hoop bail...who knows...

And yes, the round bodies were the basis of most prewar spinning reel designs. Makes the Altex all the more innovative and different. I can't imagine coming across one for sale, but if so, be sure to check the bail return, as the bail spring was brazed to the bail...you can imagine the maintenance difficulties this would create...

Sandman


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:47 pm • #  
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Dear Sandman,

As you say the Altex was ahead of it's time. I think they do turn up, so must keep an eye out. I've tended to concentrate on the French reels because that's where Mitchell led me.

I must check my fishing books. I'm fairly sure that the Altex was not as popular as one might expect because they were very expensive and they had to be returned to Hardys for servicing, which was also costly.

A quick check shows that around 1952 Richard Walker, the leading UK angler at the time felt that the Altex was too heavy and would not cast as far as the Mitchell or the Felton Crosswind. He conceded that the hoop-bail was an advantage, but as you suggested he did not feel this was a big deal.

I felt the price of the Mitchell in those days was quite high, about half of a weeks wages for most, but it appears it under-cut the other reels and the Felton was reduced by £3 after the Mitchell appeared.

Regards,

Rolands.

PS. I've just checked Ebay. There are many Altex's available !!


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 Post subject: Re: Hoop bail timing.
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:59 am • #  
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Dear lovedevil,

A warm welcome to MRM.

Since the earlier posts I have purchased a few Altex reels.

They are superbly engineered, but you would have to be very skilled to take one apart and service. Not impossible, but very difficult.

These reels were very expensive and aimed at the "game" angler who could probably afford to periodically return the reel to Hardy for service. The top UK angler of the 1950's, Richard Walker, was an engineer but nevertheless sent his reel to Hardy for maintenance. He then complained about the cost !!

The main reasons for the popularity of the Mitchell in the UK, apart from it being an excellent reel, were that it was half the price of an Altex and simple to maintain. It was also a much better reel than the Felton Crosswind which was the main reel of choice for coarse anglers wanting something more substantial than the small round-bodies.

You might enjoy a photo of a nice Altex.

Regards,

Rolands.


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