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 Post subject: History Question
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 2:37 pm • #  
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Mates,
In 1998 I was fortunate, enough, to be able to attend the First Annual Creek Chub Company Reunion held in Garrett Indiana, the home of CCBC fishing lures. I was only one of many collectors that had traveled from all over the US to attend this gathering
I think that the city of Garrett had long overlooked the importance of this small lure maker that had produced many millions of lures in the decades, and had put this city on the map.
I spent a couple of days there taking pictures of the city, the empty lot where the factory had stood, and best of all, I was able to actually talk a bit with Harry Heinzerling, one of the few remaining officiers of the company. There were about 58 of the ex-employees that were available to ask questions about some of the oddities some of the lure collectors had run into during their searches, and I wasted no time getting answers to questions I’d had for years. There were a lot of disagreements permanently settled that week end by the people that actually made the lures.

Now for my Mitchell Reels. I wonder if anybody in Cluses has ever thought that something like the above might be a way to bring tourists to their fair city, and at the same time get a lot of information in circulation that only some ex-employees might know. Though it might not be a convenient trip for us in the US, I'm sure plenty of collectors in Europe would be interested.

Regards,
Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:49 pm • #  
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hello Ted,


It would be something ,but I doubt it .
Espace Carpano et Pons is the tourist office of Cluses .
I remember a few years ago they had show of Mitchell and Bretton reels.
I guess a few ex employees showed up there ..but this show was held in the winter and Cluses and surroundings are well known for winter sports .
all the hotels were well booked in advance .
I think that the good and bad Mitchell times are stored forever
in the memories of the people who once worked there .

regards,

Dries :sAni_fish:


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 5:02 pm • #  
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Dries,
I think they are, possibly, missing a reel opportunity.

Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:52 am • #  
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Hi Ted , I had that same thought some time ago but never brought it up. After all if an employee was in his twenties or so in 1960 they would be in their mid seventies now.I am sure a lot of them would have a lot of information stored in the back of their minds. Maybe they could get together and put all the info they remember in book form. So much to learn ,so little time.Tight lines to all,Oscillator1/John


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:13 pm • #  
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Oscillator,
I have been thinking about sending the Cluses Historical Society and email, and suggesting the possibility of getting any available information about the Mitchell operation from either people that had
worked there, or their descendants.
Their society, mostly, deals with the watch making industry, but does have a display about the Mitchell works.

Regards,
Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:29 pm • #  
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Ted, give me a call and I'll tell you about me trying to do what you're talking about. Everyone was interested including the Mayor of Cluses. It never happened because the "elders" turned it down. Can anyone guess why?

Best Regards, Wallace :sFun_oldguy:

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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:17 pm • #  
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I have had contacts with a former sales manager at Mitchell, but I have not had answers to the questions that everyone is asking
Best regards,
Christian


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:32 pm • #  
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Hello mates,

I once had a chat with Luc de medts who was trying to interview former Mitchell employees but didn't get any information from Mitchell at all ...

but there has to be a way ..
:sCo_hmmthink:

Dries


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:04 pm • #  
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Dries,
We must be different here in the states. Most of the old guys, in my area, love to talk about their old jobs, and many take real pride in the products they were involved in making.
All it would take here to get information is to run an ad in the newspaper asking for information, and in fact, our local historical society would jump at anything like this.

Regards,
Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 10:49 pm • #  
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Ted, great idea. Please let me know :sCo_hmmthink:

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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:48 am • #  
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Hello Mates,

Another thing to consider may be archives of digitized documents [newspapers/magazines/books that have been scanned and had optical character recognition (OCR) done to enable keywords searching].

My efforts (at least) did not turn up anything useful on early Mitchell history with https://books.google.com/ . But, there are many other possibilities.

I just used http://nyshistoricnewspapers.org/ (which is free) to find an April, 1949 camera & sport shop’s ad in a local paper for the “(French) Mitchel Spinning Reel”.

Here’s a long shot a French mate may be interested in trying: Bibliothèque nationale de France (BnF) reading rooms provide access to Europresse database (quote from BnF below).

Quote:
Europresse, which provides access to over 2,000 French and international reference sources (newspapers and magazines; blogs, dispatches...) French-speaking countries are particularly well-represented (Algeria, France, Canada...) Numerous documents date back a long way (e.g. Le Monde from 1987 onwards and Le Figaro from 1996 onwards).

It looks like there may be a fee to buy a pass to a reading room. It also looks like one may be able to buy an online subscription to Europresse directly. Given a subscription may be expensive, it might be better to try a reading room first, if one is nearby. Also, Europresse may not go back far enough - so call the library first?

John


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:50 pm • #  
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Dries,

I think this may be some content on the exposition you referred to:

http://www.truitesetrivieres.com/exposition-moulinets-de-peche-cluses.html

EXPOSITION MOULINETS DE PÊCHE CLUSES
2-Dec-2011 to 31-Jan-2012

John


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:54 pm • #  
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Wallace Carney wrote:
It never happened because the "elders" turned it down. Can anyone guess why?


Only thing I can think of is that they don't want any American's visiting their fair city?


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:40 am • #  
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Hello Rook,

First of all, I have interviewed several people who have worked for Mitchell and their predecessors. A LOT of that information gathered is right here in the MRM.

I once had the full permission from Carpano and Pons to hold a Mitchell Mates meeting in Cluses, France. The Cluses Mayor even gave his permission subject to what the "elders" had to say.

The elders refused my request stating the reason being... they look at the first 8 years of Mitchell as a thorn in their side. Turns out post war feelings about making fishing reels during this time had a lot of negative feedback. For this reason, they vowed never to even talk about those times.

I am waiting to be contacted after these elders are no longer involved. I hope this day comes soon as I would love to be there. I was told by the curator that there is a very small Mitchell reel collection. One old "looking" half bail was enclosed in glass.

Hummm, makes me wonder.

Wallace :sFun_oldguy:

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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:10 pm • #  
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Mates,
Verrrrry Interesting. ;)

Regards,
Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:21 pm • #  
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Wallace and Ted, I agree verrrrry interesting and makes one wonder. I don't think the Cluses Elders understand how very much we mates appreciate Mitchell Reels and our avid interest in the history of the company. Sad. It would be great if somehow we could at least get a pic of the old reel in glass. Prototype??? Regards, Dennis2149


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:25 pm • #  
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Mates,
I have trouble understanding all this, possible, secrecy about the production of fishing reels.( if they were produced during the war)
The world had no problems letting bygones be bygones when it came to buying VW autos after the war, and they used slave labor in their factories producing the war time version of their vehicles.
Toyota made bayonets in their factories during this time, and Kawasaki, Mitsubishi , Nippon Steel,etc. reportedly used American POW's as slave labor in their plants. All this was old news, by most people, after the war ended. I have owned several Toyota, VWs, and they were great cars. Very puzzling! :sCo_hmmthink:

I've been trying to find the right words to express to send an email with some of these questions to the Cluese museum. I don't want to word it where it will be changed into something that will offend any possible reader at the museum. I have found that sometimes, messages are taken differently than intended when the communication is via either a email, or a post. ;) Now, add the additional changes a translation service might do, and it might not be delivered as intended.

Hopefully, some time in the future, I get around to it.
Regards,
Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:50 pm • #  
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Hello Mates,

It's also interesting to know the main reason Mitchell reels were made during the occupation. The main source of food back then was hunting, fishing, and gardens. When all their guns were confiscated, fishing boomed and the demand was greater than ever!

Also know that the city of Cluses was designed after a city in Italy. The original settlers of Cluses were Italian. It's well documented that the Italian Armies were the occupiers of Cluses during WW2. Tie all this together and you'll start to understand why the Clusian "elders" feel the way they do.

Best Regards, Wallace :sFun_oldguy:

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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:13 am • #  
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It would be very interesting to know exactly who or what "The Elders" are. If it is an official body, the membership make-up would change from time to time. The immediate post-war members would be long gone by now.
I agree with Ted : the world moved on quickly after WW2 and I don't believe there would have been a negative reaction had Carpano et Pons made fishing reels during the war. As the son of post-war refugee immigrants to the UK I know from personal experience just how understanding people can be. To suggest that the war-time production of fishing reels would cause a negative reaction today, 70 years later seems a stretch.
As Fishkat has shown us elsewhere, the Mitchell reel was, understandably, very well received and sold in large numbers to American personnel on US bases in France during the post-war years.
Respected collectors like Barrie Frewing, Luc de Medts, Jan Haanstra, Joy van Hengst and the Caminades have been diligent in their research; but I am not aware of any evidence of the war-time production of Mitchell reels being found. I know Jan has visited Cluses.
Even if we accept that a group of locals in Cluses might have wanted to supress knowledge of war-time production for fear of a negative reaction (who from?) it would surely be impossible to eradicate all evidence of 8 years of the production and sale of reels throughout France.
I am neither a historian nor a researcher. I just look at things from a practical standpoint.
Would Carpano et Pons deliberately falsify their literature and press releases, and celebrate fake anniversaries? I don't think so. That course of action would almost certainly be found out and guarantee a negative reaction. They consistently described the Mitchell as a post-war product.
If Carpano et Pons made and sold reels for 9 years before applying for Patents in 1948, why did none of their competitors copy or steal their design?
How are we to explain the fact that La Canne a Peche only deposited the design of their original reel on 14th. March 1939 (Caminade) and that, according to an interview given by the CAP. CEO, Carpano et Pons were only approached after difficulties in production were experienced due to WW2 ? Mitchell lore has it that working on the CAP led Carpano et Pons to design the Mitchell.
The material that Dan and John have shown us elsewhere confirms that Garcia did import MK2 reels. These reels would surely have been made after 1946.
The destruction, devastation, degradation and loss of life across Europe during WW2 is difficult to comprehend : it was truly horrifying. Is it likely that Carpano et Pons would have considered that the right time to enter into a new business venture making fishing reels? I doubt it.
I am quite prepared to be proved wrong on the question of whether Mitchell reels were produced before and during WW2, but this would require good, solid and incontrovertible evidence to be made available. To date, everything I have seen suggests that the reels were first produced in 1947 and probably first brought to market (outside France at least) around 1948.
I was a bit nervous about writing this post because I understand that Mitchell collectors have a habit of falling out over these things. However, I'm a newbie collector with no particular allegiancies and I see no reason why this question cannot be discussed, and hopefully resolved, in a calm and civilised manner.

Rolands.


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:04 am • #  
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Tinca wrote:
I was a bit nervous about writing this post because I understand that Mitchell collectors have a habit of falling out over these things. However, I'm a newbie collector with no particular allegiancies and I see no reason why this question cannot be discussed, and hopefully resolved, in a calm and civilised manner.

Rolands.


So you think publicly calling me a liar is a discussion in a calm and civilized manner? I now understand why you've been banned from other forums!!! You should know that cyber stalking and defamation of character are crimes and you're playing a very dangerous game!!! You should also learn to spell!

Wallace

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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:43 pm • #  
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Dear Wallace,
I am somewhat taken aback by your reply.
Just for the record, I have not called you a liar or suggested such a thing.
You are entitled to your opinion as, I hope, am I.

Regards,

Rolands.


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:21 pm • #  
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Wallace,

Thank you for posting what you have learned from Cluses.


Ted,

I have struggled with what to share with you and Mates about the occasional very deep hard feelings about WWII that I have observed a few Europeans to have. Until now, I decided not to go there because it would 1) make the issue personal (giving my examples from experience) and 2) risk offending some people. I still feel I need to refrain from personal examples. So, let me just say one thing that makes this issue even more unfathomable to us, and you may not realize this, these deep hard feelings exist in some people born long after the war.


Rolands,

I think we have to consider the possible complexities of Mitchell production and WWII. For example, I think I remember a Mate writing that Germany continued producing D.A.M. reels until 1941. I can confirm I've seen ad's in Swedish Fishing magazines for D.A.M. around that time - because it really struck me when I saw the ad's.


Mates,

I appreciate this open forum and hope we may continue in courteous discussions.

John

P.S. In fairness, "civilised" is the British English spelling.


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:56 pm • #  
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Dear John,
I do not have a fixed position : I am completely open-minded on the subject.
However, all of the information I have seen suggests that the Mitchell reel appeared post-war. If there is hard evidence that the reel was produced both before and during the War, I would like to see it.
I have sent Wallace a PM.
I do not care one little bit for the events of the past 24 hours. I worded my original post extremely carefully bearing in mind what I am told has gone on in the past.
I am a seasoned collector in many other areas and I have never experienced anything like this before.
As you have acknowledged, I do know how to spell and I am careful about how I write and punctuate my posts. I also like to think that I am considerate of the feelings of others.

Kindest regards,

Rolands.


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:04 am • #  
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Probably time you people settle down. ARE We are talking about famine ,abuse of both sexes ,racism and all the other things that go on or a Fishing Reel . Wake Up .


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:20 pm • #  
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Hi Fishabout, I tend to agree that some of the Mates should take a deep breath and count to10. Not being into the history portion of my love of Mitchell reels I'm not about to get into a spirited debate or try to decipher whose opinions are right or wrong.All I can say is with so much early history cloaked in secerecy ,it seems we will never have definitive answers to a lot of our questions. We are all Mates and I hope it stays that way for along time. Tight lines all ,John in Pa.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:22 am • #  
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Well Thanks John . Great reels , Great story but does it need to get personal .


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:21 am • #  
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Ted Lanham wrote:
Oscillator,
I have been thinking about sending the Cluses Historical Society and email, and suggesting the possibility of getting any available information about the Mitchell operation from either people that had
worked there, or their descendants.
Their society, mostly, deals with the watch making industry, but does have a display about the Mitchell works.

Regards,
Ted Lanham


...................................

Hi Ted, Florence speaks practically no English apparently, but if this helps::

Commune : Cluses

Appellation du service : Archives municipales de Cluses

Contact : Florence POIRIER

Adresse postale : Espace Carpano & Pons – 100, place du 11 novembre – 74300 CLUSES

e-mail : archives@cluses.com

Adresse topographique : voir adresse postale

Téléphone : 04 50 96 69 44

Télécopie : 04 50 96 46 99


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:28 am • #  
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J Fishkat wrote:
Dries,

I think this may be some content on the exposition you referred to:

http://www.truitesetrivieres.com/exposition-moulinets-de-peche-cluses.html

EXPOSITION MOULINETS DE PÊCHE CLUSES
2-Dec-2011 to 31-Jan-2012

John




Nice find there John. Confirmation that even the French are unsure when 300 reel production began and that Mitchell was an 'anglicised' version of Michel, the deceased brother of Charles Pons.

And that's where my appalling 'schoolboy' French runs dry.....it's sad that Tinca is no longer a member here, his French is excellent.


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 Post subject: Re: History Question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:17 pm • #  
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bailarm,
Thanks for the information. I've had it for a while , but have been reluctant to act on it fearing that a auto-translation of my attempt would be taken differently than I'd intended it.
As we have see recently, messages can be taken different if not worded carefully. Especially, for me because I have been known to ,unintentionally, stick my foot in my mouth with badly worded messages.
I am still bouncing the task around in my head, but it's hard to get past the my uneasy gut feeling about asking for information that may be so sensitive to the people being asked.

Regards,
Ted Lanham


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