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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:50 pm • #  
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Mates,
I appreciate Liondor's last post. I get tired trying to read some of the items, sometimes, posted that are in French. It makes me wish I had studied French instead of home economics. :sBo_bounce2:
I reexamined my half bails, and there are two that have with, absolutely, no signs of being plated. One had been used, but its bail look like a candidate of being an alloy. Not a sign that it might be brass plated. I think that the only way to be able to tell for sure would be to scrape on it, and I'm not about to do that.
Another, mint, half bail has signs of very small pits that tells me that it's been plated, though the rest of the reel shows no signs of use.
I'm sure that if no stainless steel alloy bails are, undeniably, found that will settle the issue. Of course, the ads may have meant that the brass was plated with a stainless alloy. :sCo_hmmthink:

Regards,
Ted Lanham


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:19 pm • #  
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Dear Christian,
I was very sad to read your last post and hope you do not feel that you contributions are not valued. When I visit this site yours is the first name I look for.
What you have to say is always interesting and expressed with modesty. As I have said before, you are an example to all of us as to how a collector should conduct himself (or herself!!).
My passion is for the reels from the first 10 years of Mitchell and the original CAPs before that. I know that your knowledge of and passion for these reels is unrivalled.
This is why I have focussed on the History and early reels : I want to learn. There are, of course, different viewpoints and perceptions between European and American collectors and the language differences can cause difficulties : even between the English and Americans. An example is our understanding of what optional means!!
The reason I posted a translation of the Press Release you brought to our attention sometime ago, is simply that not everyone can read French and I felt the document was important enough that it should have the widest audience possible.
Anything you post on early Mitchells and CAP reels will always get my attention. My interest is not as wide ranging as most collectors. I started too late so have limited myself mainly to 300's which I have fished with for 50 years.
Cordialement,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:12 am • #  
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Mates, not sure what this tells us, if anything, but I visited Dicks Sporting Goods today and this photo is at the entry to the store. Maybe you've seen it, but it states the photo was taken in their original store in New York, in 1951...note the RHW half bail (3rd version) in box, with boomerang a/r in the middle, and the gentleman on the left is holding same reel in LHW. The photo is of the brothers...who started Dick's Sporting Goods in 1948....at least its a real photo rather than advertisement...

Sandman


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:29 am • #  
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Sandman, Thanks for the picture. Hard to see the details of the reels mentioned. Anyway you could blow it up to 750 pixels?? Which store was that taken at?? Thanks again.
Kim :tup


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:43 am • #  
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Sandman,

A great find! A nice piece of history with the Ed (on the left) and Dick Stack (on the right). Thank you.

Kim,

I enlarged Sandman's photo (below) to 850 pixel width. Also did some internet searching, but could not find a photo with more detail (higher resolution) than Sandman's.

John

Attachment:
Dick's Bait & Tackle 1951 e.jpg

Attachment:
Dick's Bait & Tackle 1951.jpg


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:14 pm • #  
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Thanks John, I can see reel in box better. CAP right above that one with marked box. BOY imagine being there with a $1000 to spend on that old vintage tackle???????????
Kim :sCh_fisherman: :sHa_clap2: :sSig_goodjob2: :sFun_crazydance:


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:54 pm • #  
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Je voudrais m'excuser au sujet de mes commentaires fastidieux. Juste un de plus, si je pouvais.

Rolands,

Above in this thread you asked about “fair traded” stamped on boxes.

Ted had asked about this 2010-Apr:
http://www.mitchellreelmuseum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=510&hilit=fair+traded&sid=667cf8c117fb92d63a0a642179f80973

rng1966 has written 2010-Jun, “Also being Fair Traded - which means it was made for export - from France.”
http://www.mitchellreelmuseum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=592&p=4231&hilit=fair+traded&sid=667cf8c117fb92d63a0a642179f80973&sid=667cf8c117fb92d63a0a642179f80973#p4231

Encyclopædia Britannica describes US Fair Trade Law here:
https://www.britannica.com/topic/fair-trade-law

What “Fair Traded” means for our context (Mitchell history) is that the distributor set the retailers’ sales price. Unlike what we are accustomed to today (MSRP), where the distributor (or manufacturer) only suggests a retail price (it was a required retail price back then). US Fair Trade Law was intended to protect small businesses from large chain stores selling at lower prices. This is also known as price maintenance.

From the little further reading I have done, it looks like “Fair Traded” definitely applied to the US, possibly to the UK, and very likely not to France, as it was opposed to price maintenance.

International mates,
Can you help with this issue?

Lastly, I noticed that Chris’ (cshannon772) 1951 Charles Garcia Mitchell Reel ad included the text, “$27.50 fair traded”. I have not seen “fair traded” with any other Garcia ad’s. Not to say other years weren’t fair traded, but just that 1951 shows it.

http://www.mitchellreelmuseum.com/forum/download/file.php?id=2660&sid=667cf8c117fb92d63a0a642179f80973

John


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:03 pm • #  
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Hi to John ,Kim and all the Mates , It would be great to be 15 or 16 again and be able to see into the future and know then what I know now. I would have needed a tractor trailer to store and move all my Mitchell and Abu Garcia gear. One can only dream and ponder what if. Sweet dreams to all ! John in P.A.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:34 am • #  
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The Dick's Sporting Goods store in my area, shows the same picture as you enter the store, but dates it 1953. I see there are Airex reels in the picture as well. I will have to investigate the models shown and see if it can be further dated.

Christian, I'm sorry the Garcia discussion kind of leaves you behind. That is why, at Wallace's suggestion, that this discussion thread was entitled "Garcia Mitchell Early Years". In that sense, you could also have discussions called "Albatros Mitchell Early Years", or the same with Balzer or ARCA, or just plain Mitchell. Maybe some of those would be more familiar to you. Dan


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:46 am • #  
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Mates, If any of you are interested in having the Dick's Sporting Goods photo in high resolution, PM me and I will send it to you...

Sandman


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:12 am • #  
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Dear John,
I tried to carry out a little research on "Fair Traded" here in the UK, but have not found anything helpful.
The conventional Fair Trade movement apparently started on a semi-charitable basis to help producers in developing countries; and I think continues today. I don't think this applies to Mitchell reels. I imagine the fair traded stamp in this case is related to the after-affects of W.W.2.
In his book on dating, Mike diMattio dates Fair Trade stamps to around 1947.
As I said earlier, I have seen the "Hide" tall boxes with the stamp, but not the plain blue box with Mitchell bottom right.
I have no doubt that the information is out there somewhere, but I am too inexperienced with the internet to find it.
I notice that some members do not regard adverts as reliable evidence. I think they can be a very useful tool when carrying out historical research, but one perhaps needs to distinguish between official adverts from the likes of Mitchell and Garcia which I would expect to be accurate; and adverts of individual retailers which might well use out of date graphics.
The announcement of the availability of RHW by Garcia which Dan showed us I find compelling. We will never be able to date such an event absolutely precisely, but I personally now regard the introduction of RHW as happening late 1951 to early 1952. This fits perfectly with the letters I showed earlier from Messrs. Ingham and Walker in 1952. These gentlemen are significant in the Historical UK angling scene; indeed Walker is regarded as perhaps the most important angling figure of all by many. I, therefore, also find their letters convincing.
It would not surprise me at all if RHW was introduced to the US a little earlier than to the UK. After all, the US was Carpano's largest market.
I love the photo provide by Sandman : so nostalgic. As a child of the fifties I love everything to do with that period. It's a shame it can't be dated more accurately. Dan's suggestion of 1953 sounds about right.
I have been puzzling over the owner's leaflet that Dan shared with us which showed Garcia as importers of the MK.2 reel. The fact that information was typed individually on the verso suggests that the leaflet must have been issued in very small numbers. This doesn't make much sense, especially when one considers that the French version lacks this information. It would have made more sense for Garcia to have had a 2nd. sheet printed up showing this information. I wonder if what Dan has is actually a draft of what Garcia felt an owner should know. I suspect this leaflet is a very rare Mitchell item. The collector who sold me the French example had never seen it before and I have never heard of another.
When Milbro offered the MK.2 in the UK they produced their own leaflet with comprehensive instructions.

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:02 am • #  
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Very Interesting discussion .


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:16 am • #  
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Hey Rolands,

I enjoy reading what you write and have learned from you.

On the topic of “fair-traded”, at least for the US market, I invite you to consider the background information a little further. Then I will say no more (unless I find something new).

The Oxford Dictionary’s definition of fair-traded:
Quote:
1 US. Of a product: regulated by a Fair Trade Law. Now chiefly historical.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/fair-traded

Wikipedia on US fair trade law:
Quote:
A fair trade law was a statute in any of various states of the United States that permitted manufacturers the right to specify the minimum retail price of a commodity, a practice known as "price maintenance". Such laws first appeared in 1931 during the Great Depression ... By 1975, the laws had been repealed completely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_trade_law

On the 1951 Garcia ad with “$27.50 fair traded”, note the immediate proximity and thereby association of “fair traded” with the price. It’s the same way MSRP (manufacturer’s suggested retail price) is placed later with other American ad’s.

John


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:29 am • #  
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Dear John,
I appreciate your advice and also feel I have learned much from you and the other members.
I was obviously on completely the wrong track with my Fair Trade research which threw up a social movement whose stated goal is to help producers in developing counties. I sensed this couldn't be what the Fair Traded stamp on Mitchell boxes was about.
What you have explained makes perfect sense and I am grateful for that. I had completely missed FT on that advert.
It is interesting that the first plain blue tall boxes I have seen with Mitchell bottom right lack this stamp, but it appears on the "Hide" boxes. Were the "Hide" boxes primarily for export I wonder? Their construction is somewhat different to the other boxes and they are more robust. I believe the "Hide" box was issued with both MK.2 And MK.3 reels.
Of course, it could just be that it took a little time to get on board with the FT programme and that is the reason that the first boxes were un-stamped.

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:45 am • #  
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re: fair-traded; more info found

Rolands and Mates,

Something very interesting written by Jim C. Chapralis in his book, Fishing Passion: A Lifelong Love Affair with Angling, published in 2001.

Since it is copyrighted material, I will not post an image of the page, but rather refer mates to the Google Book link below showing the page.

Jim Chapralis writes about establishing a fishing tackle store on the Orleans US military base. Unfortunately, there is not much in the way of specific dates in the book. He does talk about starting a job at a fishing magazine in 1952, then being drafted by the US Army and sent to Orleans. Related to his military service, he writes how the Mitchell reel sold for $27.50 in the US “fair-traded” (it could not be sold for less through normal distribution in the US), but the PX (military store) sold it for $12.50 and his tackle store on the base sold it for $9.00.

Check it out!

John

https://books.google.com/books?id=Te78ZNqgGRUC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=%22fair-traded%22+mitchell+reel&source=bl&ots=lw1LZvRecQ&sig=iFuIwrGyPrpQTcB_pUNQ5kzf450&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiguOKmuvzUAhWMWj4KHRseAkEQ6AEInwEwBA#v=onepage&q=%22fair-traded%22%20mitchell%20reel&f=false


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:09 pm • #  
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Dear John,
What a brilliant read. I don't know how you find this material !!
I see that on page 53 he dates his time with the military in Europe to the mid 1950's.
It confirms exactly what you explained about Fair Trade.
Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:29 pm • #  
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Mates,

I went looking for more documentation of Mitchell Reels being sold at US military bases. I found this in an unexpected place, Trading Twelves: The Selected Letters of Ralph Ellison and Albert Murray.

https://books.google.com/books?id=14Ed9XmKZmUC&pg=PT220&dq=mitchell+reel+px&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPm5yVi8PVAhWK6iYKHdLXDL8Q6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=mitchell%20reel%20px&f=false

At the Casablanca, Morocco US Air Force PX in May, 1956 the Mitchell fresh water reel sold for $10.50 and saltwater for $14.50.

This was written in a letter by Albert Murray stationed in Morocco (who had served in the US Air Force active duty or reserve since 1943, retiring as a major in 1962). In regard to Albert Murray’s purchase of a Mitchell 300, Ralph Ellison replied, “Good to hear about your Mitchell, it’s a dam good reel.”

John


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