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Mitchell Reel Museum Discussion Group

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 Post subject: CAP and Carpano & Pons.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:37 pm • #  
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Some of my favourite reels are the very first CAPs : I love 'em.
I attach photos of a couple of nice examples and an early box, which some members might find interesting.
They are superb, chunky reels; much more robust and heavier than the later Carpano versions. The construction is strikingly similar to later reels by AMR.
In their book on French reels the Caminades tell us that manufacture of CAPs started in 1939, or earlier and possibly initially involved Bouriant and AMR. Manufacture was later entrusted to Carpano & Pons.
They also tell us that on 14th. March 1939 Canne a Peche of Angers deposited the design of a fixed drum reel for fishing; for throwing light weights; with the 3 letters CAP on the casing. This reel does not appear to have been the subject of a Patent.
In the History Discussion section of this Forum in a topic "La Canne a Peche vs. Carpano ....." it is reported that in an interview the CEO. of CAP stated that following difficulties in manufacturing due to the 2nd. World War an association was made with the house of Carpano & Pons.
In the production lists in the Caminade book the CAP first appears in 1949; one year after the Mitchell. The CAP/304 is shown from 1949/71 with over 3 million made.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that Carpano may have contracted out construction of the first reels. I'm ashamed to say that I can't recall where I saw this.
Once again we are faced with the question of whether Carpano made fishing reels before and during the War. As before, I am not invested in any particular narrative, but would like to see any positive evidence.

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:12 am • #  
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Below is a text published in an article "Industrial production angevines from 1830 to the present day" in 2007

The "Canne à Pêche". Trademark registered by Émile Rochard in 1932.
In 1931, the brothers Rochard of Angers, manufacturers and dealers of fishing articles in the Rue de Létanduère, joined forces with Charou, from Lyon, to form the company La Canne à Pêche, whose headquarters were in Angers. It is in Anjou that one finds many "canniers" of France, which transform reeds and bamboos. In 1940, the company developed its first fixed spool reel. To manufacture it, it is addressed to the small company Carpano and Pons, in Cluses, which will become Mitchell. The Cane à Pêche and Mitchell divorced in 1988, when the company, with 120 employees and 100 million francs turnover, is the first French distributor of landing nets and reels, the second of canes and lures, The third wire. In recent years, production has been relocated to Korea and Spain. It is a decline for the CAP, the number of employees falls to 50 employees and finally the company is transferred in December 1991 to La Réole (Gironde), where is the distribution company of fishing articles Plateau, which belongs to the same Group than the CAP.

Just a sharing of the documents I found, in no way an confirmation on my part as to the dates indicated


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:21 am • #  
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Thanks Christian,

More interesting reading can be found at http://www.fishingreelresearch.org/reel-makers.html. It also has an interesting story on Mitchell Reels as well.

Best Regards, Wallace :sFun_oldguy:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 9:50 am • #  
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Tinca,
Those are some stunning reels that you have pictured! I don't think that I have seen those particular reels before, but then I'm not a CAP collector and haven't been seeking out those reels. I may have collected in a different direction had I viewed this reel before.
I'm curious, what are your methods of finding the reels that I've seen in your collection? I believe you live in the UK, so can that quality of vintage reels be found easily where you live, or do you have to make trips across the channel to find the goodies?
Regards,
Ted Lanham


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:52 am • #  
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Excellent information, Christian.
Merci.

Dear Ted,
I live in the UK. and MK.2 reels and later are readily available here. We have a branch of collecting here called "Specimen Hunting" and the Mitchell 300 was the reel of choice for over 30 years. Most "Hunters" had 3 or 4 of them.
We also have a branch of competition fishing called "Match Fishing" and, as you can probably guess, that is what the auto-bail (Mitchell Match) was designed for.
I am an old retired guy and my wife and I collect in many areas. Believe it or not, I regard Mitchells as fun collecting.
I wanted a MK.1 and looked in France. One thing led to another....
There are 2 secrets to finding reels : firstly ask the question and secondly have the cash available.
Actually there is a third secret : be easy to deal with. Most of my transactions take only a matter of minutes to conclude. I remember buying a lovely reel from that gentleman Roy Allet over breakfast one Sunday morning. It took 10 minutes and the cash was in his Paypal account.
I soon discovered that, as you would expect, the early reels are not nearly as scarce in France as elsewhere and also that the French collectors are generally more interested in other makes. The variety of French reels available to the collector is astonishing. They truly are a nation of anglers.
As an example, I bought the 2 pre-Carpano CAPs from the same collector. He also found me 4 no. MK.1. Mitchells and other specials. The Caminades in their book have a 5 star rarity rating system, with 5 being the rarest. The early CAP gets 5 stars and the MK.1 Mitchell 3 stars.
I have found Mitchell collectors to be some of the nicest people and have encountered surprisingly little dishonesty.
I just love early reels and enjoy cleaning and servicing them.
You're right by the way, the pre-Carpano CAPs. are fantastic !!
Kind regards,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:00 pm • #  
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Hello Rolands, you say
"I soon discovered that, as you would expect, the early reels are not nearly as scarce in France as elsewhere and also that the French collectors are generally more interested in other makes. The variety of French reels available to the collector is astonishing. They truly are a nation of anglers.
As an example, I bought the 2 pre-Carpano CAPs from the same collector. He also found me 4 no. MK.1. Mitchells and other specials. The Caminades in their book have a 5 star rarity rating system, with 5 being the rarest. The early CAP gets 5 stars and the MK.1 Mitchell 3 stars"

I know most of the French collectors, many are part of those who told me that I was a small collector because I was interested in Mitchell. When they realized that Mitchell reels were gaining value they began to sell those they had, reels they had found at the time when the granaries were full.
They were fortunate to be able to sell what they had paid a "bite of bread" at prohibitive prices on internet sites, the current clientele has no limit on price.
Tomorrow morning at 5:30 am I would be on a flea market hoping to see by the light of an electric lamp the rare reel that I have been looking for 20 years for a small ticket of 5 €.
Just my philosophy of the collection, I am not in front of the computer, the checkbook next to, to monitor Ebay and put a bid 2 seconds from the end!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:27 pm • #  
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I am interested in what you say, Christian.
I buy very little from Ebay. I think "sniping" as it is called is an abuse of the system.
Sadly, I do not have the opportunity to do the same as you as I do not live in France. My best chance of building a nice collection is to develop relationships with collectors in France and that is what I have done.
I like to treat people fairly and am happy to pay fair prices. I am not a rich man, so I certainly have a limit on price. It is the natural way of collecting that an item will often pass through several hands before reaching its' ultimate destination.
I respect you for what you have done for our hobby and how freely you share information.
However, my understanding is that the value of Mitchells has fallen in recent years as has been the case with most collectables due to the effect of computers and the internet. I have only owned a computer for 4 years so this is all new to me. I have been a serious collector in other areas for many years and my approach has always been the same : develop good relationships with other collectors and dealers; analyse the market and make up your own mind as to value. Too much emphasis on money spoils what should be an absorbing hobby.
I am always happy to pay what I think is a fair price. I'm sure there are people willing to pay more; just as there are people who would prefer to pay less.
I believe in the saying "Live and let live". I wish you every success tomorrow.
Bien cordialement,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:40 pm • #  
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Tinca, Liondor,
You guys are very fortunate to be able to find such fantastic reels so readily available. It is hard for me to imagine those early reels being found very often at a flea market, but it's a fact of life, I guess. I've been to, maybe, a hundred flea markets around where I live, and never found even a nice (3rd Version) Mitchell.
I believe that had I been born where either of you live, that I would have made several trips to the Cluses area by now. There must be one or two good reels in the hands of the old employees.
I saw on google map that Clues is only about a day drive from the channel tunnel. I think I'm just dreaming a bit.

Regards,


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:06 pm • #  
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Hi Ted, It seems to me we are a lot alike, in age 72 and our interest in Mitchell reels and the like. Not being a genuine collector but someone who watches out for them and will pick one up now and then.Some of mine are users and I do have some that I've never used at all.With that said I do hope that my son sees that they go to someone who will either use them or care for them the way I have. Viva La France Oscillator1 /John in P.A.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:05 am • #  
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Dear Ted,
If you lived on this side of the pond, I'm sure your collecting would have gone in a different direction and vice versa.
I also like the later 300's and the variety of different boxes. As you can imagine, finding the American boxes has been much more difficult for me than it would be for you. There are the problems of international shipping, customs taxes and just not knowing market conditions.
Every Sunday morning I make myself a coffee and browse Ebay USA to see what's on offer. Sadly, I rarely buy because the current dollar/GBP exchange rate works against me. It is a brilliant time for you to buy from Europe though!!
My favourite reel from the US is the 300X package which I think is stunning.
The important thing is that we just enjoy this absorbing hobby as best we can. We have a saying "the grass is always greener on the other side !!".
Regards,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:04 pm • #  
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Tinca,
I haven't ,even, been able to add a 300X to my collection. They are tough.
Maybe, the State guys and you guys across the Atlantic need to work together more to, possibly, to help each other. I'm sure some of that is going on already, but might be cultivated a bit more. :sCo_hmmthink:
Of course, I may not be knowledgeable enough about the process to know the difficulties.
Regards,
Ted Lanham


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 12:34 pm • #  
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Mates,
Here are a couple you don't see everyday. I thought Ted and Tinca would get a kick outta seeing these.

300 and 302 Boxes
Image

300X
Image

302X
Image

Randy 8)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:11 pm • #  
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Dear Randy,
Fabulous pieces. Thanks for sharing.

Dear Ted,
As you say, I'm sure some across Atlantic co-operation goes on. It can be a bit awkward agreeing terms. I think you need to know and trust the person you are dealing with really well, when it can work to everyone's benefit.
I suppose that is the advantage of Ebay and the internet : you can buy from anywhere.
I'm never sure how easy it is to share collecting. I think sharing information is essential, and Christian is a shining example to us all in that regard, but the actual collecting is more of an individual process.
That said, I like to see reels from the collections of others. It whets the appetite if nothing else !!

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:17 pm • #  
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Randy,
You are killing me! :sFun_bricks:

Ted


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