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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 3:44 pm • #  
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I have been studying Mitchell history now for fifteen years due to my long history with these wonderful reels. My problem is I was informed through a different topic on this web-sight that Maurice Jacquemin was not the engineer that developed the first Mitchell reels and that the reel that he did not invent was never sold to the public until 1948. I can not wrap my head around this information and honestly can't think of how I missed this important fact! Help!?


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 1:10 am • #  
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Hello John,

This is a forum discussion group where anyone can state their opinions no matter how ludicrous. It bothers me to see this as it does you. Maurice Jacquemin DID invent the Mitchell and was highly involved in the creation of many other Mitchell reels. It was first invented in 1939/40 and was sold only in France. As it gained popularity, more version were made with gradual improvements we call 2nd versions. These 2nd versions were sold throughout France and in some other venues such as Milbro in the UK. Garcia started selling 3RD versions in 1946/47 and with that said, they NEVER sold any 1st or 2nd versions. I hope this clears up any confusion this site may have caused you and others!!! Please go to our MRM website for further details, mainly in the History section.

Kindest Regards, Wallace :sFun_oldguy:

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 12:50 pm • #  
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The attached Mitchell paperwork makes it clear that Maurice Jacquemin designed the "Mitchell" and I've no doubt that he is the person referred to by Barrie Welham in his interview reproduced elsewhere in this Forum.
To suggest otherwise would indeed be ludicrous.


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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:25 pm • #  
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Funny that they say it was invented in 1946 but shows a 3rd version as the premier model. Although I agree with 90% of what it reads, to believe they started out with 3rd version is ludicrous!

Wallace :sFun_oldguy:

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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 9:27 pm • #  
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Tinca,

I certainly accept what you and Wallace say, since I don't know much about the history of the Mitchell reel other than it was my first reel as a boy.

Just a general comment though. It's helpful to cite the source of any paper (provided it's known) because that's part of the story and the quality of evidence. Your paperwork is from the Mitchell 300 PRO Anniversary Edition reel.

About which MRM states:
Quote:
... Mitchell 300 PRO Anniversary Edition reel which was among the last Mitchell reels that were truly Made in France. These were first introduced in 1989 by Mitchell Sports and carried on into 1990 in celebration of the 45th anniversary of the 300 series Mitchell as they say 1946-1989.

and:
Quote:
This particular reel has always caused controversy regarding when the first Mitchell was manufactured. To us it made a lot of old Mitchell mysteries very clear. As you can see, the picture they show is actually the 3rd version. We know this reel was invented by Maurice Jacquemin in 1938 and production started on a small scale by 1940. The year 1946 was the start of mass production, exporting and the beginning of record keeping.


So, doesn't it seem that Mitchell themselves have substantially contributed to some confusion?

John


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 4:23 am • #  
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I take your point, John, but in my defence this document was first referenced in the thread "Late half bail serial numbers" in the Questions to the MRM section.
I think it's fairly clear that Mitchell themselves regarded 1946 as the year the Mitchell reel was born. This is clear from the Anniversary PRO leaflet which we have discussed and also the small run of Silver Anniversary reels which were produced in 1971. A silver anniversary normally celebrates 25 years.
Mitchell hosted a celebration gala in 1971 and the press release clearly stated that the first reels were assembled in March 1947.
I do not claim to be a Mitchell historian or expert, but the evidence I have seen (much of it anecdotal) suggests the reel was first commercially produced post-war.
I am not invested in any particular narrative, but I have yet to see any evidence to confirm War-time production.
The War had devastating consequences for Europe and I would not have thought that it was the best of times to be embarking on a new venture making fishing reels, even if materials could be sourced.
I see no reason for this to continue to be a divisive issue. I think we just have to accept that there are 2 schools of thought on the early history.
It is unfortunate that the Anniversary PRO leaflet shows what we call a 3rd. version as the first model, and, as you suggest, this has certainly contributed to the confusion. We must remember that Mitchell did not use the version system. That is a creation of collectors, and Mitchell would have regarded the first model as a reel with a claw-bail; which is what they pictured.


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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 12:06 pm • #  
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Tinca,

If what you try to is to clear up history, it's just making many new Mitchell collectors very confused. I have yet to see anything from you proving me wrong on any Mitchell dates of manufacture. There were some anomalies that has always caused confusion. I've found that most of these anomalies are nothing but parts reels! If you believe what you say, please tell us how you account to the following facts:

1- Mitchell themselves confirm what I say is true. See http://www.mitchellfishing.com/Mitchell-about-mitchell.html so how can you say Mitchell themselves confirms the starting date of 1946???

2- If what you say is true, how was it that many soldiers returning home in 1945 brought 2nd version Mitchell reels. This has been documented by me and many others.

3- Charles Garcia (USA) started selling 3rd version Mitchell reels in 1946/47. They never sold and 1st or 2nd versions. Again, this is well documented.

These are only a few, but I highly doubt you can or anyone else can dispute these facts!

Regards, Wallace :sFun_oldguy:

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2017 3:20 pm • #  
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Thank you for your interesting reply, Wallace.
Can I ask you why you think that Mitchell would say that the reel was designed in 1946 and first assembled in March 1947 and consistently celebrate those dates, if that is not the case?
Also, why were Patents only applied for in 1948?
I don't doubt that servicemen returned after the War with Mitchell reels, but the question has to be when? America retained a military presence in Europe long after hostilities ended.
I have visited the web-site you referred to and it states that a prototype reel was produced before the War and a Patent obtained in 1950.
Could I ask you what evidence you have that Garcia was selling 3rd. ver. reels in 1946/7?
My understanding is that Milbro started marketing the reel in the UK around 1947/8 (Welham) and we know they sold 2nd. ver. reels. I have one complete with Milbro paperwork.
There is strong evidence in the UK and France that RHW only appeared around 1952/3. This takes the form of correspondence between top UK anglers of the time and catalogues which Christian Lhermitte posted on one of his sites. The catalogues show that RHW was in the process of being prepared in 1951 and available in 1953. An early RHW reel without serial no. has turned up.
I readily admit I have only been collecting Mitchells for 4 years and my experience cannot compare with yours, but all of the information I have seen suggests that the reel was first manufactured after the War, albeit that preliminary design work probably started pre-War.
I have had contact with several French collectors and they all date the reel to 1946/7 as do the Caminades in their reference books.
You clearly believe otherwise and are so firm in your convictions that I assume you must have some cast-iron proof that the rest of us are unaware of. Could I ask you to share this with us so that this matter can finally be put to rest.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 2:00 am • #  
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Tinca,
I will not bore anyone with my history for now. At the end of your last post here you asked Wallace to provide you with cast iron proof of why he knows Mitchell reels were released before you think they were. May I redirect you to the beginning of your post when you say"I don't doubt servicemen returned after the war with Mitchell reels". I would consider this to be cast iron proof coming directly from you! My information is that Mitchell's were being produced in 1942 in France and a reel sold in 45 could have never been designed in 46, assembled in 47 and sold beginning in 48. Allied forces occupying a country after a war are not connected to the forces that were sent in to do combat. Infantry soldiers would never be allowed to wait three years for a fishing reel to become available. I hope in the future that members will not describe other members as being withdrawn, abusive and or disconnected, this is just not the place. I use three other web sights and four books based on this subject that I own to procure an education. All of your sources are foreign to me and that is why we have different educational bases. Next subject is just a little off topic but should be justified. You have stated you have obtained close to 25 reels, in four years, that we both consider first versions. I am amazed at that statement, I would be thrilled to just see one in that time. My question is do you know that there are fake wooden handles out there that will fit the first two versions? How many of your reels have factory handles or fake ones and or are you able to tell the difference between the two? My history knowledge is not on the line here, what is is a good sound knowledge base for new members who are coming here with little to no experience. Part of my beliefs are based on the fact that I am a decorated combat Veteran R.V.N. 1968-1968. At least I hope you find this post interesting too. My feelings are that a lot of the information being posted here was went from being ludicrous to just plain spurious. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 7:32 am • #  
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I sense that this topic is becoming over-heated so I will make this my last post on this vexed subject.
I'm sorry to say that the point you are making about American soldiers returning home escapes me.
The suggestion that the reel was designed in 1946 and first assembled in 1947 does not come from me : it comes from Mitchell. I have no axe to grind either way.
Where I agree with you is that we in Europe have access to information not readily available to you in the USA and vice versa. I thought that was the point of an international Forum like this : the sharing, pooling and discussing of information.
I will make 2 more small points before finishing. The Mitchell site which Wallace referred me to states that the reel was named "Mitchell 300" in April 1957. This does not sit well with the dating guide on this site and perhaps warrants investigation.
Elsewhere in this forum (I can't remember where) Christian Lhermitte told us he has a document stating that 3750 reels were made in 1949. This suggests that at that time it was still a very small operation and hardly allows for significant exports to the USA. It also suggests to me that they had not been making reels for very long because once anglers worldwide became aware of this reel, sales took off.
I will now address your concerns about my small collection. Yes, I have found 25 wooden handled reels in 4 years. 15 are MK.1's and 10 MK.2's. Yes, I am satisfied that they are all original with original wooden knobs. I do not in any event rely only on knobs to determine authenticity. I think I have posted photos of 5 or so of my reels on this site if you are interested. No, I have not encountered any reels with fake knobs and also no I do not believe that fakes and forgeries are a problem in the world of Mitchell collecting. I have found Mitchell collectors in the main to be decent and honest people.
I know one collector who has had wooden handles made, but I doubt this is for any dishonest purpose.
We return to the fact that perceptions in Europe can be different to those in the USA. Wooden handled reels are by no means common over here, but they are certainly not as rare as is generally thought. I have actually found them quite easy to obtain because I don't think they are of much interest to most collectors. 2 of my nicest wooden handled MK.2's came from ebay USA.
If you are interested, feel free to PM me and I can give you as much information on early reels as you would like. Of course, if you genuinely believe that what I have posted is spurious, there is no point.


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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 8:41 am • #  
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Wallace,

As I wrote above, I accept the MRM timeline.

We need to be as scholarly, as possible, on the topic and to be constructive in discussion with one another.

I would like to review your topic 1:
Quote:
If you believe what you say, please tell us how you account to the following facts:

1- Mitchell themselves confirm what I say is true. See http://www.mitchellfishing.com/Mitchell ... chell.html so how can you say Mitchell themselves confirms the starting date of 1946???


This is what the Mitchell webpage says:
Quote:
They created the first prototype open-faced spinning reel in the latter part of the 1930s and a patent was granted in 1950 for this new reel design.


I see a protoype date, a patent date, but I don't see a start of production date. Do you?

To repeat, as written above by Tinca and me, there are examples of Mitchell citing 1946 as the start of production. Is that confirmation by Mitchell? Hmmm. It can certainly lead to confusion. Yes?

Take the example of the "Mitchell 45th Anniversary Reel", which MRM states:
Quote:
These were first introduced in 1989 by Mitchell Sports and carried on into 1990 in celebration of the 45th anniversary of the 300 series Mitchell as they say 1946-1989.

http://www.mitchellreelmuseum.com/index.php/category/521

John


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 8:22 pm • #  
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Dear John, If you're going to quote me, please quote the whole text:

"This is a complete original Mitchell 300 PRO Anniversary Edition reel which was among the last Mitchell reels that were truly Made in France. These were first introduced in 1989 by Mitchell Sports and carried on into 1990 in celebration of the 45th anniversary of the 300 series Mitchell as they say 1946-1989.

These were a Limited Edition for distribution in several forms. The first issue as shown will have a gold name plate stamped with the number of that particular reel that matches the certification card. You will also find the serial number “T.4” and sometimes “T.4.” on the foot. Sometimes the letter “T” is very hard to see. Within these were a very limited few with ARCA painted on the rotating head. Another issue was this same reel with matching “Limited Edition” rods sold primarily in Canada. Others have been found without any serial number on the foot.

This particular reel has always caused controversy regarding when the first Mitchell was manufactured. To us it made a lot of old Mitchell mysteries very clear. As you can see, the picture they show is actually the 3rd version. We know this reel was invented by Maurice Jacquemin in 1938 and production started on a small scale by 1940. The year 1946 was the start of mass production, exporting and the beginning of record keeping."

Sincerely, Wallace :sFun_oldguy:

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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:03 pm • #  
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Hi Wallace,

Thanks for your comment. What I quoted about the "45th Anniversary Reel" was intended to show what Mitchell promoted as a timeline, not so much what MRM said (which in this case I now learn was by you). Is everything written at MRM by you? (Sorry, I'm new here.) Sorry also I did not quote you in entirety - this is a requirement I have never seen before. Oh, I see now that I did provide a link to the webpage with all of your comments and that earlier in the thread I had more extensive quotes from that page.

What about contemporaneous evidence (letters, articles, testimony from people, etc.)? Is there any at MRM you could direct me to? Or, any you may be planning to post? Expert statements (such as yours) are great, but evidence really wins people over.

Also, I was going to say this earlier, but the site was down. Emotionally laden words, such as ridiculous and spurious, do not engage people in a positive way. (Forgive me if I don't quote the whole bits, as they're present above.) Anyone has the potential to contribute to the hobby in the future.

Warm regards,

John


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:13 pm • #  
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Hello Wallace,

I think in 20 years people still will not agree on that date. It's been like that for many years, for my part I no longer take the head with this date and avoids taking part in the discussions on this subject.
Christian


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:08 pm • #  
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I will start by saying I want to apologize to everyone who has replied or viewed my recent topic. Tinka thank you for offering me more information on the early Mitchell reels, my position now is I will probably never see one of them , the value I have seen listed here in the U.S. is $1,200.00 so the item is well out of my price range, but if my position ever changes you would be the first person to contact. I had two problems with information posted and you have helped with one of them but one is still left. I never intended to attack you in any way or anyone else and I finally see you are saying that you are only repeating information given to you by Mitchell and nothing more. Pure Fishing bought Mitchell in 2000, they are located here in Hoboken N.J., Jarden Corp bought Pure Fishing in 2007 and they are located in Rye N.Y.. Both company's still exist so I don't know how that works and they are both international. I feel there is a large disconnect between the Mitchell companies located here in the U.S. and the original Mitchell company in France. The disconnect here in MRM is less as all we are doing is processing the information available now in different ways. Thanks!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:02 pm • #  
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Tinca wrote:
I think it's fairly clear that Mitchell themselves regarded 1946 as the year the Mitchell reel was born. This is clear from the Anniversary PRO leaflet which we have discussed and also the small run of Silver Anniversary reels which were produced in 1971. A silver anniversary normally celebrates 25 years. Mitchell hosted a celebration gala in 1971 and the press release clearly stated that the first reels were assembled in March 1947. I do not claim to be a Mitchell historian or expert, but the evidence I have seen (much of it anecdotal) suggests the reel was first commercially produced post-war.


Tinca, So how do you account for this statement in the 64' Fisherman's Digest?

Wallace :sFun_oldguy:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:49 pm • #  
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Wallace,

Sorry, what am I missing? Was Fishermen's Digest published by Mithchell? Was that statement written by anyone ever employed by Mitchell?

Tinca wrote, "Mitchell themselves regarded 1946 as the year the Mitchell reel was born." He did not write that everyone in the world (which would include writers of Fishermen's Digest) regarded that to be the case.

Warm regards,

John

P.S. Isn't early 1940s as start date of Garcia importing Mitchell to the US (as written on that Digest page) pretty remarkable? Was there a 3rd version then already? How does that Digest statement square with your judgment (which I accept) written above?

Quote:
3- Charles Garcia (USA) started selling 3rd version Mitchell reels in 1946/47. They never sold and 1st or 2nd versions. Again, this is well documented.


Can we agree the Digest statement is a little off?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:57 pm • #  
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France was fairly wrecked in the early 1940's. Initially there were the German and Italian occupied zones and Vichy France. Germany fully occupied Metropolitan France after the Allied Landings in North Africa in late 1942.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:28 pm • #  
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Smead,

Thank you for bringing this issue into the discussion. The Nazi's invaded France in May, 1940. This has made me wonder about the availability of raw materials (which could have had limited/restricted international access and/or could have been diverted by Nazi occupation) for the production of fishing reels.

Does anyone have related historical information that could help us further understand the impact of WWII on production of French fishing reels?

John


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2017 11:53 pm • #  
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Wallace,

Please, could you help a newbie out and not ignore my request?

Quote:
What about contemporaneous evidence (letters, articles, testimony from people, etc.)? Is there any at MRM you could direct me to? Or, any you may be planning to post? Expert statements (such as yours) are great, but evidence really wins people over.


Warm regards,

John


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:00 am • #  
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I thought members might be interested in an excellent French book which includes a section on Mitchells. It is titled "Le grand livre des moulinets Francais" and is by Bernard and Michele Caminade. It is available from www.metaphorediffusion.fr.
Price is 48€ plus shipping.
The book includes annual production numbers from 1948 until 1985 obtained from the person responsible.
In other posts, I suggested that 3750 reels were produced in 1949. I was mis-informed. 4600 Mitchells were produced in 1948 and 18325 Mitchells and 3750 CAP's in 1949.
I have photographed the lists, but will not post here as the authors would first need to give permission. However, if any members are interested, just PM me your regular e-mail and I will send copies.

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 1:37 pm • #  
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Hello Rolands,

The lists you are referring to are those made according to the notes of Emile Pugeot.

Year-by-year compilation is the total month-by-month production per type of reel.

The author of the book you are referring to sent me the complete compilation that includes all types of Mitchell reels, I participated in the Mitchell part of this book, my photos illustrate the last three versions of this book. I am morally obliged not to disclose this entire document, from time to time I try on a particular subject to advance topics such as recently on 3-0-8

I was also privileged to receive in 2001 the monthly version of the production of the 300 in 1954. It was a very nice gesture from one of the pioneers of the Mitchell collection, this one had me Wrote "finally a Frenchman who is interested in Mitchell" following many messages that we had.

All this to say that despite these documents I am not able to affirm which year is the debate.

Christian


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:39 pm • #  
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Christian, once again, and I speak for all UL enthusiasts, I :sSig_thankyou: very much for providing the 3-0-8 info. It has, as you say, advanced my UL knowledge and made this hobby even more enjoyable for me.

Sandman


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:35 am • #  
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Dear Christian,
I was aware that you had helped with this book, but didn't mention it for fear of causing embarrassment.
I think that the information is extremely important.
I would echo the comments of Sandman and say how appreciative I am of all you have done over the years to further this hobby of ours.
Merci beaucoup.
Tres bien cordialement,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:23 pm • #  
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J Fishcat
John, I see you asked Wallace to direct you to anything listed here in MRM pertaining to this topic, if I may ,obvious but?, I suggest the History Icon here, it is a well detailed list of events very similar to the five to six other sources that I have found, most have their own twists but overall they agree. Second in the Articles section of the Forum look up the Topic,The Early Years of Mitchell. This post should be at least interesting and just a start for trying to figure out what anyone else may think, it will probably not change anyone's opinion of the subject and just add fuel to the fire. This was posted in March of 2011 so it has been here a while. I started learning about Mitchell reels in 2002 when I found the Mitchell Reel Collectors International web-sight , they also have a History section, to the best of my understanding they are not based in the U.S.? Sorry that is off topic just a bit, but it should be a solid source of information on this topic. Kind regards , John


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:59 pm • #  
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John Thomas,

Thank you. I read MRM's History section some time ago, long before I joined the Forum.

My question twice unanswered was:
Quote:
What about contemporaneous evidence (letters, articles, testimony from people, etc.)?


So, in regard to Wallace's statement:
Quote:
2- If what you say is true, how was it that many soldiers returning home in 1945 brought 2nd version Mitchell reels. This has been documented by me and many others.

could we see some of that documentation? What exactly is it? Letters, photos, statements from GI's and/or their family (with names and dates), etc.

Wouldn't some evidence go a long way to help convince people? The discussion in the thread above about returning GI's shouldn't have been necessary, if evidence were accessible.

John


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:16 am • #  
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John,
Thank you for the quick response, I was sure your saw the History section. You did not mention reading the MRM forum "Articles" under the topic The Early Years of Mitchell, that I mostly refer to, the post has been here for a long time. I can not or will not speak for Wallace in any way, things here are confusing enough as it is. On the subject of soldiers returning with Mitchell reels. In Wallace's book there are pictures of a soldier and a picture of the reel he brought back. This story is confirmed by his wife and daughter, this is what little I know about what the subject is based on , is the story accurate or not?, I do not know but it is what I have to go on I left out the names in fear of copyright infringement. John


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:16 am • #  
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John Thomas,

Is the current screen capture (below) the Articles section you are referring to? I do not see "The Early Years of Mitchell".

John

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:33 am • #  
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John,
The screen you post is not what I am talking about, so no. When you first press the forum tab you will be shown a list of ten topic headings so you can pick a place to post,or read, the first one being Mitchell Reel Talk, right now we are in the fourth listed topic of Mitchell History Discussions. The topic I refer to, or next, is the fifth one listed as Articles, that is the one just before number six that is Mitchell For Sale or Wanted, and this is where the post I refer to is located. Basically the information is of Maurice Jacquemin's version of Mitchell history told to Barrie Welham and then relayed to Wallace, how it was relayed I do not know. I do not expect this information to change anyone's views on this topic but it will at best help other members see where the other members are coming from. Thank you very much and have a good day. John


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:32 am • #  
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John Thomas,

Okay, it's here:
http://www.mitchellreelmuseum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=916&sid=2f98e577f4fcde3ea3eddbc9e856ebd7

I certainly have no reason to doubt Barrie Welham, Retired CEO Garcia Tackle UK.

There is an update to Wallace's comments on that page, that maybe Wallace knows since 2011 but hasn't updated yet. Due to Wallace's expressed requirement to be quoted in entirety, here it is:
Quote:
For years, misconceptions and assumptions about the beginning of Mitchell reels have been repeated so many times that what was fiction was considered fact, even now as I write this. Numerous historical inaccuracies have been debunked and many new and surprising facts have been uncovered especially over the last five years! Seems like most websites and blogs by many including the owner of the Mitchell brand, Pure Fishing, continue to post incorrect information.

I believe Pure Fishing is just going on what's been told by others they feel are reliable sources. These others have based their findings on spotty research at best. They also rely on a patent on the Mitchell reel dated August 3, 1948 therefore it must have been first made in 1948!? But wait a minute; besides this patent being in English and not French (an obvious giveaway) what about our soldiers returning from WW2 in 1945 with a 2nd version Mitchell? What about Mitchell showing a 3rd version Mitchell reel dated 1946 in a 1990 catalog? I have so many "what about" responses, for now I'll just post the below article just received by my good friend, Mr. Barrie Welham who is helping me nail these facts.

Barrie had a very long history with Carpano & Pons, Impecco, Tom Lenk and especially the man who invented the first Mitchell and his good friend, Maurice Jacquemin. If you don't want to believe my five years of hard research, try not believing these words from a man who knows and I have to say, try asking him if he is possibly wrong and you will get a sharp response just like me when I first questioned him!


I would like to see this part updated:
Quote:
They also rely on a patent on the Mitchell reel dated August 3, 1948 therefore it must have been first made in 1948!? But wait a minute; besides this patent being in English and not French (an obvious giveaway)...


The 3-Aug-1948 patent application is for Great Britain (I'm not sure what that gives away):
http://www.mitchellreelmuseum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=5372&sid=2f98e577f4fcde3ea3eddbc9e856ebd7

This was predated by the France patent application on 28-Jul-1948:
http://www.mitchellreelmuseum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=5377&sid=2f98e577f4fcde3ea3eddbc9e856ebd7

If I am not mistaken, I may have seen the French patent illustration on the cover of a French language book. In any case, this is certainly not new information.

John


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