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Mitchell Reel Museum Discussion Group

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:22 pm • #  
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Location: Wheeling WV
I got this 300 C at an online auction, very noisy and the anti reverse does not work. Looks like a plastic anti reverse dog, and looks like the teeth are crisp or the very top, but all wore out below that. (took the dog out since, and it in indeed all wore out)
I will have to try to see where the noise is coming from.
If I take the side cover off, there is no noise from the side cover when turning the handle.
I think it may be in the pinion. Do I shim the pinion in the side case, if I shim the pinion, do I also have to shim the main gear?
What about the head, it seems to spin freely with out any play or looseness.
How thick are the shims?
I tried about a .040 washer under the pinion, but the OD was too big, and it extended under the main gear, and jammed it
up when put back together. So I am thinking the OD has to be small enough so as not to affect the main drive gear.
Can I still get these shims, and where?
I need the plastic A-R dog for sure too. I don't know if plastic was a good idea for the dog.

Was this plastic anti reverse dog a problem on these 300 C's.? I thought the 300 C was supposed to be better than the 300. Any one have a replacement dog for the 300C?

Or know who might have one reasonable?
I already have $25.00 into this reel.
Thanks,
Tony


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:22 am • #  
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Well, I think I may have sorted it out.
The seller was going to refund my money, but we worked it out where he sent me a partial refund, well actually half.
So I ended up paying $12.00 for the reel.
I still need the anti-reverse dog.

But I think I found the shim, I think someone was in there trying to fix the Anti Reverse, and lost the pinion shim.
Would you believe I found it on a rag?
And I thought it came out of this other reel, but that reel had 1 under the pinion, so I added this one also, but when l put the side cover back on, it jammed up the rotor.
So I put it under the other reels pinion, and it is way quieter. So it must have been floating around inside the reel, and got stuck to my rag when I was cleaning the old grease out.
There were no pinion shims under that pinion at all, and I understand there is always at least 1 pinion shim?
has that been your experience as well?

I might like to try one more thin one, see if I can get it a little better.
Might try a piece of tin foil as a temporary test.

I wonder if that plastic dog they went to was a problem with these reels?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:56 pm • #  
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Hi Tony,

Welcome to the Group :sSig_welcome2: !!

Congratulations on your 300C - a very nice and smooth (when tuned properly) reel. Most of the later Mitchells had shims under the pinion gear, where the rotor cup meets the body and under the baffel plate to keep them smooth and quiet. Additionally, the 300C has roller bearings in the main gear/handle and the rotor cup/body which can come apart and are easy to lose. The shims are brass, are very specific to their application and come in various sizes - .010, .015 and .020. You can experiment with other materials, washers etc. but the best way is to purchase a selection of shims (relatively cheap on ebay) and use them in the appropriate positions to fine tune your reels. When tuning my reels, I clean them well and re-assemble them "dry" which makes it easier (and less messy!) to swap in and out shims etc.. Once I have it right, I lube it and do the final re-assembly.

The plastic A/R dog found on later Mitchells has not been a problem in my experience but I guess everything can wear out eventually. The A/R dog is part # 81945 and is common to the 300, 300C and 330; they come in both black and white (makes no difference). There is one on ebay now for $2.99 listed for a 330 - the seller is in Canada so shipping will be a little more and will take a little longer to receive but he is reputable. There may be other A/R dogs listed as well.

Hope this helps and if you have any other questions/concerns, give us a yell. Been a little slow around here for the past week or so but it will pick up.

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:59 pm • #  
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Yeah the fellow from Canada was about $8.00 0r $9.00 shipping,
I found a NOS one for $6.00 and $2,00 shipping.
But the same seller gets about $2.00 each for the pinion shims.
I have just the slightest bit of end play in the rotor to body,
I might try a very thin shim there if I can find some reasonable.
The seller I got the dog from was not sure how thick the pinion shims he has are.
Then he wasn't sure if he could (e bay would allow) combine shipping, but I think the seller is allowed to send a new invoice combining shipping.
Maybe if I could get some thin brass shim stock, and between some kind of punch, a drill, and my metal lathe, I might be able to make some acceptable shims up.
I will see how it goes.

Funny how I found that shim on my rag. Had to be floating around in there, cause, like I said, it made the other 300 reel I had been working on jam up.
And placing the shim under the pinion (in the 300 C) quieted it way down.
The handle was a little bent, but I was able to straighten it pretty darn close in my arbor press.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:04 pm • #  
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I did find something like 21, #81024 Shims, (Head to Housing) for about $12.00 shipped. Didn't think that was too bad.

They are 0,10 mm thick, (about .004) in inches.
I have a wee bit of end play in the rotor to housing, may try one additional shim there when I install the dog.
I wish an aftermarket company would make the shims, and sell them cheaper than e bay is getting for them.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:43 pm • #  
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Well, http://www.mitchellparts.com/
has the
81024 shim, .75 cents each, and the
81035 shim, .95 cents each,
so $7.50 for 10, and $9.50 for 10. and $8.00
shipping and handling.So there is $25.00 for 20 shims,
But there is no mention of thickness.
I e mailed him on e bay, but he said he did not know.
The other two part numbers are sold out , the 81024 and the 81047 , so not sure yet.
May just try a 81024 or two under the head to housing.
Turns out this is the same fellow that I am getting the AR dog from.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:57 pm • #  
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Didn't get my A-R dog or shims yet, but decided to tear it down again, and clean everything.
The shim, head to housing is 0.2MM (.006 thousands)
So I will try adding one more head to housing shim, the ones I have coming, are again, 0.1 (.004 thousands)
Funny thing is, the pinion shim measures .015 thousands. (0.38MM)
I thought they were all .004, .006, or .008 thousands.
Must be a factory shim.
I did bid on some baffle plate to head shims, but don't know if I'll win the auction for another day or so.
These are also 0.1mm thick.
If I can't get all 3 thickness right now, I figure the 0.1mm is the best, I can always stack 2 or more.
Thanks,
Tony
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:54 pm • #  
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Hi Tony,

The reel looks good. You may want to pull the roller bearings out of the faceplate and rotor cup to clean those as well. You can take a small screwdriver and push the faceplate bearing out from the handle side and from the gear side of the rotor cup using caution to keep them together - the cage is in two pieces and the needle bearings will fall out if separated. You also need to put them back in their respective part (rotor cup, faceplate) in the same direction that they came out after cleaning. To clean, I spray them thoroughly with WD-40, with the "straw" attached to blow out any dirt etc. and then oil well with 3in1 oil prior to replacement.

I also noticed that there is no shim between the rotor cup and the washer for the baffle plate?? May want to check to see if it's stuck to the rotor cup. It's been my experience that almost all Mitchells have at least one but they are thin and often stick to the rotor.

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:37 pm • #  
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cshannon772 wrote:
Hi Tony,

The reel looks good. You may want to pull the roller bearings out of the faceplate and rotor cup to clean those as well. You can take a small screwdriver and push the faceplate bearing out from the handle side and from the gear side of the rotor cup using caution to keep them together - the cage is in two pieces and the needle bearings will fall out if separated. You also need to put them back in their respective part (rotor cup, faceplate) in the same direction that they came out after cleaning. To clean, I spray them thoroughly with WD-40, with the "straw" attached to blow out any dirt etc. and then oil well with 3in1 oil prior to replacement.

I also noticed that there is no shim between the rotor cup and the washer for the baffle plate?? May want to check to see if it's stuck to the rotor cup. It's been my experience that almost all Mitchells have at least one but they are thin and often stick to the rotor.

Regards,
Chris

Yeah, that reel is really clean, nicer than this picture shows.
Oh, so I should use oil on the roller bearings, and not grease?
There is a baffle plate shim, it is not shown in the picture, it is under the black baffle washer. It is .004 thousands thick.
Do I put grease under the Oscillation Guide before screwing it down, or just screw down the Oscillation Guide, then grease the case.
I am going to try lubriplate white grease this time.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:27 pm • #  
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Hi Tony,

Good to know that the Baffle/Rotor shim is there. Oil in the roller bearings is smoother and the bronze guides will absorb the oil providing long term "light" lubrication. Grease will lubricate for a time but will get hard/solidify after a while. I would avoid any white grease - it will get hard faster than most other greases - speaking from experience here. I use a good bearing grease cut and mixed with 3in1 oil until it's the texture of thick honey and then use an artist paint brush to coat all moving surfaces - gears, A/R, shims etc.. There are two different conventions about grease coating inside the case including under the oscillating guide. My preference is not, primarily because it's messy and over time it liquefies and leaks out the bottom of the reel. It will prevent any corrosion but unless you are regularly submerging the reel or using it in salt water, my opinion is it provides no benefit. Again only my opinion - but Mitchell didn't do it at the factory when they made them. Good luck and have fun with your project - the 300C is a great reel.

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:49 pm • #  
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Oh, OK, so just a regular wheel bearing grease?
I have some red wheel bearing grease in a can, just thin that down with some 3 in 1 Oil?
so there are bronze guides used with the needle bearings?
Is that like a oillite material?
I will mix up some grease with the oil if the red bearing grease I have is OK.
I already put the guide in, and did not grease under it.
Is there any collector value to the 300 C, or should I just use it?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:19 pm • #  
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Tony,

I'm not certain that the bronze sleeves in the faceplate and rotor cup are an oillite material but 3in1 seems to work well and the originals were not greased. The red bearing grease thinned will work OK but I've found that the brown (pennsoil, etc.) mixed with 3in1 thinned to a light gold works best (I've experimented with both).

The collector value of the 300C is of opinion. They made around 270,000 of them from 1969 to 1985. The later, from around 1980 to 1985 were made in Tiawan and have considerably little if no collector value as of today but the engraved 300Cs can be harder to find in new condition and in the original boxes. Contrary to some claims of two versions of the 300C, there were actually three - I've attached a photo of the three versions in my collection. I'm not certain which version you have without seeing the faceplate. To display/collect or to use is a personal decision that only you can make. I have some Mitchells that are display only, some that I use regularly and many that I'll pull off my display and use carefully just for the thrill of fishing with a classic. The 300C is a beautiful reel to either fish with or just admire and play with on occasion.

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:34 am • #  
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I'll put a picture of the face plate tomorrow,
I was going to mix some grease, but went down and got into something else.
I have a tiawan 300, it's not bad, but this don't remind me of it.
I wonder why I can't see your pictures, I have to keep logging in all the time, it is always telling me I don't have permission to do this or to do that.
Brown penzoil, I would have to get some.
Do you get the grease in the USA or are you in another country?
I know a lot of the grease that was talked about here, in other threads, seemed to be from other country's.
Edit, I see them now, but don't know why I have to log on all the time here.
They are nice looking,


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:31 pm • #  
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here is the faceplate, I tried to get some other pictires, but they came out bad.
I know, I like this anti reverse lever style better than the boomerang style.
No AR Dog yet, some of these sellers are SLOW.
I ordered it tuesday, and just today got a tracking number.
Then, Monday, I ordered some bearings for my sander, she sent them out monday, and they still are not here yet.
Sometimes the post office gets things here in a flash, and other times, are super slow.
No big deal on either order, but was just looking for something to do.
Amazon dot com is slow a lot of times too.
Rant over;
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:09 pm • #  
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Do I only need the "SHIMS FOR DRIVE GEAR 81035" for the 300, if the drive gear is contacting the side plate;correct?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:45 pm • #  
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Hi Tony,

That's a nice looking 300C; a second version. The first version had a wide A/R lever and the third version has the reinforced A/R lever (referred to as a butterfly) same as the eighth version 300. I'm in Virginia and get the Pennsoil grease at Auto Zone, Advanced Auto etc. It's strictly my personal choice and I've had good performance with it but any quality light wheel bearing grease should be fine - the important thing is to thin it. I've never seen a shim on the main gear and some light scuffing on the faceplate is common with a used reel. The scuffing is proportional to the amount of use, you can give shimming a try but I think you'll find that it will cause binding or noise in the transfer gear or pinion gear. Hope your 300C is coming together nicely.

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:15 pm • #  
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Yeah, I got the head to housing shims in the mail today, and oiled the head bearings, and added a shim, as there was slight end play in it.
But it was a bit much, as it was a bit stiff turning.
I did not have and .15 mm shims, to replace the .2mm that was in there, so I lapped down both of the shims a bit on some 220 wet on a granite plate, and assembled it, took about .001 (inch) or less off each one, and now she spins freely with no end play.
I'll thin some grease up tomorrow, and finish putting it together.
I'll try to get some better pictures of it.
Thanks,
Tony


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:25 am • #  
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Well, got the 300 C back together, no play in head.
Pretty quiet with A-R off, but seems noiser than my others with A-R on.
Guess thats just the way it is.
Does it hurt to just leave the A-R on all the time, say when spinning, or just reeling in to check your bait?
l thought l had read, it's best to leave it off.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:48 am • #  
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You know, l have another 300, (well 4 all in all now, counting the 300"C")
l was goofing around down the river, and my one reel starting making a sort of "jingling" noise.
It seemed to be coming from the baffle plate.
When l tore it down at home, I found a "witness mark" on the bottom of the baffle plate.
Also there was some wire created.
Seems one of the trip lever screws had come loose.
I of course tightened it up, and had some "end play" in the head to housing area. There was one head to housing shim, so l added another, but now the head was too tight.
Checked the 2 baffle plate shims, would you believe they were .016 thick each?
I thought they only came in .004, .006, and .008.
Well, the ones I have (baffle plate shims) are .004, so I took out a .016, and added a .004. No, too loose. added another, No, still too loose. Think I ended up with 4 all together, counting one of the .016 ones I left in there.
Seems pretty good now though.

:sSig_offtopic: little off topic here, but, now I have to decide weather to use the other 300,s for my light trout rods. I brought 2 medium 6 foot ugly sticks, and 2 light, 5 foot ugly sticks, after my 2 rods were stolen.
I had about a 1988 308 A, and a Shakespeare older than that (small one, about the 308 size) .
at the time I got one of my 300's, I also got a 304, then I got a 2nd 304, planing to use them on the light rods,
but, now I seem to like the 300's better.
I was looking at some 308's for my 2 light rods, but they seem to go pretty high, cost wise.

:sSig_offtopic: While I am off topic, may as well stay off topic, did anyone ever use a glass minnow trap?
I got one last week, and yesterday, did not have any luck with it, but the day before, with in 10 minuets, I had 2 in there, and with in about another 20 minuets or less, I bet I got about 10 in there. (they were nice ones too)
Yesterday, there were just not as many around as the day before. Then there were 2 big old carps hanging around in that corner, they might have scared the minnows too.
This is the River now, and these are shiners.
I left my metal trap in the river for 3 days, and did not catch a one.
They say shiners will not go in a metal trap.
Mods of course can delete off topic content if it is not allowed. :sEm_oops:


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