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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:03 pm • #  
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So are you saying that the 50 schematic was actually printed after 53 so may not be accurate to what was actually put on a reel in the factory in 1950?


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:29 pm • #  
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Hey Jeremy Fisher,

You wrote something very interesting, which reminded me of a Field & Stream December, 1953 ad showing the 4th version (inserted below).

Quote:
I think we are on firm ground with the 4th. version. The first reels up to around B50000 had metal knobs, and after that plastic. The first issue reels with metal knobs are very rare in the UK. I've never seen one.

Attachment:
5312 F&S 065 Christmas.jpg

I had previously just assumed (incorrectly) the artist had been lazy and not updated the knob.

Some more about that Dec 1953 ad. The illustrated 4th version is described “with bail arm” and proudly presented as 1 of their 3 new reels (the other 2 pictured being by Plate, Germany). The 1953 Garcia Catalog (likely printed ~Oct/Nov 1952) still had the 3rd version, while the 1954 Garcia Catalog showed the 4th version. All that would indicate the 4th version appeared in the US during 1953, possibly late 1953. When are you thinking it appeared in the UK?

I had been wondering how NIB (new in box) cross-winds could be differentiated from level-winds, if indeed they came from the factory versus being done by the tackle shop.

Wallace wrote in the MRM Mitchell Reel section:
Quote:
... a new discovery was made in 2008 by Jan Haanstra, a well known Mitchell Collector in Holland, a unique 3rd Version with very unique Cross-Wind Gears! It has now been fully documented that Mitchell first introduced the Cross-Wind gearing in 1949/50. To distinguish these from the common Level-Wind gearing they installed a red anodized Handle Knob. The lowest serial number found to date is #A07127 and the highest is #A07324 with two others in between.

So, there is precedent for using a different knob.

Looking at Garcia catalogs, there is no indication of 2 variants having been offered in the US. What is offered are optional cross-wind gears ($1.50) to replace the level-wind gears. By the late 1950’s that appears to no longer have been a selling point.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:15 pm • #  
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Jeremy Fisher,

Sorry I didn’t quote you on what you had written (I had missed finding it while I was posting).

Quote:
Another, less likely, possibility is that for a while plastic knobs were used on level-wind and metal on crosswind reels. This fits the handful of reels I have here, but it is far too small a sample.

Gary,

The Charles Garcia catalogs and ad’s I have are consistent with what Wallace wrote about the move to 268 Fourth Avenue from 53 Park Place. The indication I have is that the move occurred between September and December, 1953.

It is interesting though that “1950” schematic shows a half-bail with what appears to be a plastic handle.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:29 pm • #  
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John, thank you for the information. I agree it is interesting. It seems every time i think i might have a grasp of things a wrench gets thrown into the works. :sHa_biggrin:


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 7:27 pm • #  
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Mitchell1965,
Jeremy was referring to the owners manual, not the schematics. I think.


Jeremy Fisher,
Since Garcia had been an importer of various goods for decades at the Park Place address, could there be the possibility that when the hot item "Mitchell" reels demanded more space that the Park Place location offered for parts and service, so they located that function at 268 Fourth Ave.. Later Fourth Ave. being chosen to consolidate everthing in one place. All this is speculation on my part, but I've seen actions like this several times during my working years.
I do recall, somewhere, that a statement was made that Garcia had both locations for a period of time. I would not begin to know where to start to find how long these dual locations existed.


Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 7:55 am • #  
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Gary,

As Ted pointed out, I was referencing both the 1950 schematic and the early owner's booklets.

If Garcia did move to Fourth Avenue in 1953, the 1950 schematic date may be inaccurate.

I attach pictures of 3 early owner booklets.

The earliest was printed in the US and has the Park Place address, so is most likely pre 1953. This deals only with the half-bail reel with level wind gears and metal knob.

The second was printed in France and the Fourth Avenue address is added by stamp. Perhaps this booklet was printed in 1952/early 1953? This booklet is again for a half-bail, but as John pointed out, the full bail and crosswind are introduced as options. Both half and full bail reels are shown with a metal knob. This booklet indicates to me that the half-bail was still the main offering for part of 1953 at least.

The third booklet was printed in France and has the Fourth Avenue address. This booklet deals only with the full-bail with a plastic knob. Both crosswind and level wind are mentioned.

Ted.

I hope you managed to access those Ebay UK numbers. I use "advanced search" and tick the completed box. Sorry if I'm teaching grandma how to suck eggs! It should be possible to provide links, but I don't know how ( John ?? ).

what you say about the locations is entirely possible. I also seem to remember reading that both locations were used for a while. I think it is generally accepted that Fourth Avenue became the main location some time in 1953.

JF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:19 am • #  
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John,

You make some very interesting points.

I also have a copy of the 1953 Christmas advert. The original "Spinet" is a famous Scottish reel.

I attach a copy of a dealer leaflet which suggests the full-bail was due for release around March 1953 in the US. Also a similar leaflet for France.

Contemporary evidence suggests that the full-bail first appeared in the UK in late 1954/early 1955 after the Hardy full-bail patent expired in September 1954. At one time both the full-bail Mitchell and the Salt Water reel were marketed as "New 1955 Model".

You are absolutely correct, and the first crosswind half-bail reels had a red knob.

I think that the knob on all full-bails was quickly changed to plastic. I have both early level and crosswind reels with such a knob.

However, the situation with the half-bail is different and "B" and "C" reels can be found with apparently original metal and plastic knobs. It appears that the plastic knob appeared some time after B50000 relying on "Carney - The Mitchell Classic 300 Spinning Reel". My sample is very small, but I have one post B50000 (just) half-bail with crosswind and metal knob and 2 similar late C reels. I also have a level wind reel with "B" number and plastic knob.

You might be on to something when you suggest that the different knobs indicate different gearing, but we need to know of many more reels. The trouble is that, as Ted pointed out, knobs are easily changed so I doubt we will ever be able to reach a firm conclusion either way.

JF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:10 am • #  
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Hey JF and Mates,

Not to make too much of the date issue, but below is a fun Garcia ad (so, may I be forgiven for posting?).

It’s from the June, 1953 Boy’s Life, entitled “Spin for Your Fishing Merit Badge.” It features the 3rd version at 53 Park Place.

The full-bail conversion kit ($10.00) did not appear in Garcia catalogs until the 1954 issue, the same year the 4th version did.

John
Attachment:
5306 Boys Life 062 Garcia.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 12:06 pm • #  
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John,

Very interesting. It looks as though your suggestion of the move to Fourth Avenue taking place late 1953 is accurate.

JF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:14 pm • #  
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Jeremy,
I did, finally, get to see the half bails on the UK site. Wow, more to consider! :sCo_hmmthink:

Does your 2nd version booklet have "Copyright 1953 By Charles Garcia" inside the front cover? Just curious.

Also, most of the manuals I have, like your third example, match except I have one oddball that was printed in NY by General Offset Company and has the local union stamp on the bottom left corner of the back cover.


I'm beginning to think that these guys might not have been too particular with their paperwork, and that they'd outsource to whoever was handy.
Especially, trying to make things uniformly when actions were being taken on both sides of the Atlantic.

My head is spinning trying to absorb all this. :sFun_shocked:

Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:29 am • #  
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Ted,

I'm pleased that you found the Ebay reels.

Yes, you are quite right and the 2nd. booklet I showed has 1953 copyright inside the front cover. It actually sys 1-53 Copyright 1953. Perhaps that signifies January.

Well spotted !! I had missed that completely. It just shows the benefit of collaboration.

You said earlier that this might be an interesting subject, and that has been the case. I sometimes wonder what the individuals involved in making these reels would make of our deliberations. I think they would be astonished; but it does make for an interesting hobby.

JF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:54 am • #  
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Mates,

Just thinking about manuals (with identical content - well, nearly; some of the photos are slightly different) printed in both France and the US, there are scenarios where a US-printed booklet would very likely have been more cost effective. Let’s consider 1951/52 - prior to any printed Garcia catalog (with stapled pages).

1) Fishermen were invited to ask their dealer or write to Garcia for free illustrated literature (see May, 1951 Field & Stream ad below).

2) A 5 x 6¾” folder (with pockets) containing the booklet (along with single sheets about other Garcia products from Norway, Sweden, Germany, and the US), see the cover below. Its 3rd version reel booklet (which appears to be the same as JF’s, top left) was printed in the US (see excerpt below).

It’s possible that any US-printed booklets found in Mitchell boxes were inserted there by well meaning collectors replacing a missing manual.

John
Attachment:
5105 F&S 112 Mitchell Reel.jpg

Attachment:
5200 Garcia Folder cover front.jpg

Attachment:
Garcia Mitchell Reel 3rd Booklet printing.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 11:39 am • #  
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John,

I can see 2 sides to this.

All 3 booklets state on the front cover "Important! ………… read this booklet before using your reel." This suggests that the booklet was intended as a manual for the reel owner.

On the other hand, 2 of the booklets are priced at 20 cents which clearly indicates they were available separately from the reels.

In Mr. Carney's book (page 106) are a series of photos of an early full-bail being un-wrapped for the first time. Included is a booklet.

JF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:49 pm • #  
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Jeremy,
My understanding about John's statement was that just the manuals made in the US would have been used by "well meaning collectors" to replace the original manual.

I was privileged to own a 300 that just recently been unwrapped and had its own manual placed on top of the box as was the one in Wallace's book. If I recall correctly, my reel was produced in 1956, so I don't know if reels came from France that way in 1952/53, or not.


It kind of make sense to me that manuals that were shipped to requesting fishermen, without accompanying reels, could have been produced in the US.

I have often wondered why the older employees of Mitchell, in France, didn't answer questions about production, dates, etc. that have been asked in the last 10 or 15 years. I would think there are some of these people still around, but at advanced age.
Now, I'm starting to feel the same way about the Garcia employees here in the US.
I have personal friends in their 80's and 90's that can tell unimaginable details about the work they did as far back as the 30's.
People in their parts departments, marketing, warehouses, I would think might have a million answers.

I would have thought that, at least, one of those either past employees, or their children would have visited this site and joined in the fun.
:sSa_sadeyes:
Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:58 pm • #  
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John,
I wonder if the free catalog that the 53 "Boys Life" ad mentions is the "Spin Fisherman" that Garcia put out. If so, it would be interesting to see whats in the first edition of that. I have a couple of the later years, but not the first.


Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 3:16 pm • #  
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Ted,

I see what you mean. It's all very confusing, and I clearly misunderstood John.

The first booklet I showed was the first to carry the Garcia name, so it is understandable that it was printed in the US. It is written as a manual so I assume it was added to the boxed reel by Garcia, but also used to publicise this new reel as John has demonstrated.

They must have decided fairly quickly that it made more sense to have the "Garcia" manuals printed in France and added to the reel there.

The booklet that was issued with 4th. versions in Europe had a green cover and made no mention of Garcia. This was printed in French, English and probably other languages. This was followed by a number of different leaflets.

I don't think I've ever seen a booklet for the 3rd. version other than the Garcia one. The reels over here usually have the green foldover leaflet in French or English.

JF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2019 6:32 pm • #  
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JF,

Thanks for your comments, by which I see I left something implied that I should have stated explicitly.

In regard to manuals, please view Wallace’s thread for additonal versions (one needs to be logged in for the link to work): Early Mitchell (300) Owner's Manuals .


Ted,

Thanks for explaining what I meant.

Some more comment about Garcia manuals (for the US market) being printed and inserted in the reel box’s or box wrapping’s country of manufacture. I have seen Garcia manuals for ABU reels printed in Sweden. I think we may agree, it would seem to be most cost effective to include all box contents (reel, extra spool, & manual) at the same time versus re-opening later in the US to insert a US-printed manual.

In regard to the Jun-1953 Boys’ Life ad, I think the mail-in offer was for the 1953 Garcia Catalog (The Spin Fisherman magazine issue with an inserted Garcia Catalog was in 1954 - I don't have a copy of the magazine's first issue). Please see cover images below.


Warm regards to all,
John
Attachment:
5300 Garcia Catalog 00 cover.jpg

Attachment:
5400 Garcia Catalog 01 cover.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:26 am • #  
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Hello,

Just a supplement on the booklets Garcia.
A "flying" sheet inserted inside one of those I own:
"Special parts for the Mitchell FAST RETRIEVE REEL".
On this booklet, the parts 49A replace the 49 and the parts 55 are removed.
best regards,
Christian
Attachment:
Fast retrieve.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 2:42 am • #  
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Hello Jeremy

You write "The booklet that was issued with 4th versions in Europe had a green cover and made no mention of Garcia".
The first two booklets had a black cover, the first with a cover different from the second which is identical to the green covers.
Best regards
Christian


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:23 am • #  
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John,

Wallace's thread is very good and complete. Thanks for pointing it out.

Hello Christian,

It would be interesting to see the booklets you refer to, when you have time. I don't think I have seen them.

Thanks,

JF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:21 am • #  
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Hello Jeremy

Attached are the photos of the French booklets and the two Garcia.
Best regards,
Christian
Attachment:
Livret 4M français.jpg

Attachment:
livret garcia 49 et 55.jpg

Attachment:
livret garcia 49A.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 11:15 am • #  
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Hello Christian,

That is most informative and helpful.

Thank you very much.

JF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:48 pm • #  
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Mates,
Like I stated before I don't have the 1st catalog, but I do have the 54 "Spin Fisherman". Here it has on the Mitchell.
A funny thing here is that there isn't any engraved "Mitchell" on the this reel or the other models in the catalog. ????
There is a mention of the owners manual, that comes with every one of them, on the bottom right of the second page.
Also, it's no surprise that all the pics show full bails and plastic handle knobs.

Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:47 pm • #  
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Hey Christian,

So wonderful to have you join this thread with your contributions.


Hey Ted and Mates,

Inserted below are 3 pages about the Mitchell Reel in the 1953 Charles Garcia Catalog.

Unlike the 1954 catalog content (posted by Ted in the thread above), engraved “Mitchell” is visible on reel images.

Additionally, noteworthy in those 2 pages from the ’54 catalog is an image of the cover to a 32-page reel manual (with 20¢ printed on it).

Back to the 1953 catalog, readers are invited to write Garcia for a complete, illustrated 32-page booklet (for 20¢) on spinning with Mitchell. Hmm, does this seem like a reel manual? Has anyone ever seen another booklet that would fit the description?

John

P.S. My brain is fried at this point. :sFun_rofl:
Attachment:
5300 Garcia Catalog 02.jpg

Attachment:
5300 Garcia Catalog 03.jpg

Attachment:
5300 Garcia Catalog 04.jpg


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:39 pm • #  
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Mates,
I am really sorry I was unable to get involved in this thread as I have been dealing with family medical issues and unable to participate. :sSic_yuk:

Just look how far this topic has evolved. :clap :sHa_clap2: :sSig_nicethread: Wonderful photographs have been posted and comments from many mates, especially Christian, who always seems to blow my mind with his vast Mitchell knowledge. :sFun_bananachaplin:

Some of the major points that were raised dealt with 3rd-4th version handles, or should I say metal knob verse plastic twist knobs. I have some more information regarding this topic I think all may find interesting so I am starting a new post dealing with this topic. Hope everyone will join in. :sSig_goodjob2:

Cheers and Kind Regards,
Bill :tup


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:27 am • #  
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Dear John,

You might find ebay no. 202649831713 interesting.

This is a somewhat larger booklet at 25 cents. At the back it references owner's booklets as instruction manuals. These are also priced at 25 cents, and appear to date to the mid-fifties or a little later. We know these owner's booklets were 32 pages; the same as the "illustrated booklet on spinning".

The booklet states that Garcia introduced the Mitchell to the US in 1947.

Regards,

JF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2019 4:48 pm • #  
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Hey JF,

You make an interesting point about another booklet (albeit larger at 72? pages), titled “Garcia Spinning Instruction Manual,” being a candidate for mail-in offers. Given Spinette reel and Mitchell full bail content, may we say 1954 and later? I do own a copy of that booklet (but haven’t counted its pages).

I’m away from home (tower PC with Mitchell files; boxes with hardcopies of Garcia materials) for some weeks traveling with notebook PC, so I won’t be able to contribute from that content.

That said, in the above mentioned booklet, I’ve seen the “Confused About Spinning” article with the statement, “… in 1947, Charles Garcia & Co. introduced the Mitchell spinning reel to the American angler” (which you’ve referred to) in at least one other Garcia publication from that time. My speculation on that is they presented at a trade show (versus reels appearing in tackle shops across the US – not having seen any kind of a footprint to indicate that).

John


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