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Mitchell Reel Museum Discussion Group

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 Post subject: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:31 pm • #  
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My latest find came in the mail today. Not perfect but awesome regardless.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:32 pm • #  
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Having trouble adding photos


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:04 pm • #  
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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:16 pm • #  
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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:29 pm • #  
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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:00 pm • #  
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Nice looking late third version....full bails came soon thereafter...has a later replacement handle...

Sandman


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:01 am • #  
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Thank you. My father had one of these and i remember it having a different handle. Ill have to see about finding the correct one. Just bought a conolon 2506 4 star im going to put it on.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:20 pm • #  
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The photos are not clear, but I'm not sure the reel has a replacement handle.

"B" numbered reels can be found with plastic and dark blue metal knobs, albeit this is an early "B" reel which might make metal more likely.

I attach pictures of the important identification parts of the handle shaft on a "B" reel and also of the different knobs. The plastic knob had a very smooth surface : later it became textured.

A "B" reel could also have level or crosswind gearing.

Just my thoughts based on reels I have seen.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:55 pm • #  
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Jeremy Fisher,
If I understand you correctly, this could make for an interesting discussion.
I, personally, have never seen an original Mitchell Half-bail reel with a plastic twist handle knob, and I have seen a few. Even the full bail "pilot reels" had the blue metal knobs.
That said, I think that some owners may not have liked the metal knobs and replaced them with the plastic twist knob.
The above is just what my exprience has been, and I never rule out being corrected. Especially, if it was one of the later, full bail, pilot reels.

Respectfully,
Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:03 pm • #  
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Gentlemen,
Ted Lanham is right, this is an "interesting topic" on one of my favorite Mitchell Versions! :sSig_nicethread:

Jeremy,
Thank you for posting the photographs and adding your very interesting comments. Could you please describe what the: "... important identification parts of the handle shaft on a "B" reel..." are in each of the photographs?
Also, are you familiar with what Wallace Carney calls "4th version Pilot or Test reels"? See: (below) :sHa_rollingsmilie:

http://www.mitchellreelmuseum.com/index ... tegory/133

Mitchell1965,
Could you please post some more photos of your reel? I/we would love to see the gears inside your reel. :sSig_thankyou:

Kind Regards,
Bill :tup


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:25 pm • #  
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Hello Bill, Yes i would be happy to post more pictures. Will have them on asap.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:39 pm • #  
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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:46 pm • #  
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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:52 pm • #  
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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:41 am • #  
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In my experience, late half-bails were sold with both plastic and metal knobs. I attach photos of a MIB "B" reel with plastic knob and a similar "C" reel with metal knob. The latter has crosswind gears with a plastic transfer gear. Half-bails turn up regularly on Ebay with plastic knobs, although as Ted points out, they could be changelings and there is no way of telling for sure.

It is clear that the first full-bails were "B" numbered and sported metal knobs, but these were quickly changed to plastic. I attach photo of a "B" full-bail with plastic knob and level-wind gears.

Based on production records, "B" and "C" reels were made for about 18 months. This was a transition period and several different configurations can be found : half or full bail, metal or plastic knob, level or crosswind gears. Having said that I have not seen full-bails with metal knobs other than the very early ones. On the other hand half-bails seem to have been made simultaneously with both plastic and metal knobs.

I doubt whether these were made to special order. I wonder if reels were modified at the point of sale to suit customer's preferences?

Dealing with identifying handle shafts, I attach photos of the first 2 types which can be found on 1st., 2nd. and early 3rd. versions. The back edge of the counterweight is slightly rounded on the first reels and then became sharp on mid-period 2nd. reels. The locking slot is gape mouthed and was not very secure. As will be seen from the earlier photos this was rectified on later reels by making the slot tighter. The back of the counterweight became very rounded.

It looks to me as thought the handle shaft on the reel under discussion here is correct. The plastic knob could be questionable, but if it has a smooth surface, I would give it the benefit. The reel has level wind gears.

Only my thoughts based on the reels I have here.


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Last edited by Jeremy Fisher on Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:44 am • #  
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Handle shaft photos.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:11 am • #  
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See ebay 372639161127. This is certainly a replacement knob as it has a textured surface.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:19 am • #  
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So now i am curious as to where this reel falls for year of production and if everything on the reel is accurate as to its year of production. Two other bits of information i can give about it but cant get in a photo is 1) it has an X stamped on the foot. 2) it has a roman numeral 2 stamped on the knob of the quick release spool. I would appreciate any help or knowledge anyone could give.
Thank you, Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:36 pm • #  
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As far as can be told from the photos, your reel looks perfectly correct to my eye, apart from perhaps the handle knob. The plastic knobs are fairly fragile and might be replaced several times over the life of a reel.

The Roman numeral isn't a Roman Numeral ! It shows the spool from the side and differentiates a shallow spool from a deep one. In other words the ones of the "numeral" are farther apart on a shallow spool and closer together on a deep spool. It does look like a Roman numeral though.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:15 pm • #  
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Oh ok. I get it. Now that i look at it again it does look like an image of the spool. Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 2:43 pm • #  
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Jeremy Fisher,
I wonder if that short 18mo. transition period would have resulted in the plastic handled half bails appearing mostly in the UK and France? I believe that there times that certain items appeared in the US before they were sold across the Atlantic, and visa-versa.

I recall someone stating that the full bails were available in the US before the UK/France. Can you confirm this? If true, this could explain the different configurations.


Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:00 am • #  
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Hi Ted,

I think it is safe to say that the full-bail appeared in the US and France about 18 months before the UK due to patent restrictions.

I think we are on firm ground with the 4th. version. The first reels up to around B50000 had metal knobs, and after that plastic. The first issue reels with metal knobs are very rare in the UK. I've never seen one.

The 3rd. version reel is a mystery to me as regards handle knob.

I think your suggestion that the plastic knob was used on half-bails initially in Europe is entirely possible. Another, less likely, possibility is that for a while plastic knobs were used on level-wind and metal on crosswind reels. This fits the handful of reels I have here, but it is far too small a sample.

I would be interested to hear from any members that have half-bails with the first type of smooth plastic knob.

Of course, we are discussing a mass-produced item, and it is quite possible that the new plastic knob was intended to be used on the new full-bail while the stock of metal knobs was used up on the old half-bail; but that some plastic knobs found their way on to half-bails by chance or accident.

I guess that the mystery is part of the fun of collecting Mitchells.

JF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 10:29 am • #  
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Jeremy Fisher,

Hopefully, some of the mates will add to our discussion about the half bails with the smooth handle plastic knobs, but some of out contributors may be away fishing somewhere.

Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:13 am • #  
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Ted Lanham,

Let's hope so. It would be interesting.

I've been mulling it over. I'm sure you're right when you say that some owners might have switched metal to plastic as a preference, but one would have expected the same to be the case with 2nd. versions and, offhand, I can't recall ever seeing a 2nd. version offered for sale with a plastic knob whereas I've seen dozens of 3rds.

I shall monitor Ebay for the next few weeks and see if that gives us a clue. Any 3rds. with plastic knob and a pre "B" number will have had a change. It's the "B" and "C" numbers we're interested in.

JF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 11:50 am • #  
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I've trawled through completed listings for Mitchell half-bail on Ebay UK. There are many plastic handled half-bails and most are obviously incorrect. However, 3 look alright and one of them claims to be from the original owner's family.

What is noteworthy is that all 3 are "C" numbered reels.

The ebay numbers are :

283361675137.

123604425228.

323648004057.

You need to use advanced search, completed listings.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:11 pm • #  
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Would the type of baffle plate a reel has also help date it?


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:53 pm • #  
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Yes. See attached extract from Wallace Carney's book ( I hope this is permissible ).

Wallace also shows an "A" reel with plastic knob, although he states it might be an upgrade.


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 12:58 pm • #  
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I was looking through the schematics on this site and the 46 and 50's show metal handles and the 49 and 52's show plastic handles. The 49 schematic is very hard to tell exactly but looks curved like the plastic. Does this help or am i just confusing things?

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 2:57 pm • #  
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Mitchell 1965,
I'm glad you brought up that 1950 schematic. It does appear that the handle has the plastic twist knob.

Since Mitchell was showing the metal knob in 1952, I wonder which handle one would have received if part #16 had been ordered in 1950?? I think if it had been me doing the ordering, that I would have been upset getting the plastic knob. Especially, in those days plastic wasn't always thought to be all that great.

I'd still be upset, even today, getting a plastic replacement part for anything that had been originally metal.

That said, those plastic Mitchell knobs do hang in well!!

Jeremy,
I'm having trouble seeing those ebay items you mention, but I haven't given up yet, and I still have that thing in my head about if they are original/replacement.

That 1950 schematic is expanding my view, a bit. :sCo_hmmthink:

Ted Lanham


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 Post subject: Re: Mitchell 1/2 bail
PostPosted: Sun Mar 31, 2019 3:48 pm • #  
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Hi Ted,

You will need to access those ebay numbers via the UK ebay site. Just enter Ebay UK in your search engine, or scroll to the bottom of the home page of the American site and access it there.

I don't want to get into dating because I know it's a delicate subject, but I will just point out that Wallace Carney confirms in his book that Garcia moved from Park Place to Fourth Avenue in 1953. The 1950 schematic shows the Fourth Avenue address.

The last owner's booklets for the half-bail has the Park Place changed by stamp to Fourth Avenue. The first booklet for the full-bail has the Fourth Avenue address.

JF.


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